When a marriage is in crisis, it can be hard to know what the next step should be. Is divorce the only option? Are there other steps available that couples often miss?
Dr. Greg Smalley, Vice President of Marriage and Family Formation at Focus on the Family, joined Dr. Juli Slattery on Java with Juli to talk about some of the options couples can explore.
Prefer to listen? You can also listen to the full conversation here.
Juli (00:00.962)
Well, hey, friend, welcome to Java with Juli hosted by me, Juli Slattery. And this is a listener supported podcast. It’s an outreach of Authentic Intimacy.
When we hear that a couple is thinking about divorce, we usually assume it’s because of something big like an infidelity or addiction. And that certainly can be the case. But for many marriages, they get into a crisis like this because of a lot of small things adding up, not listening to each other, neglect, resistance, the constant fighting, or maybe they just drift apart and find that they have nothing in common. When a marriage hits this kind of crossroads, it can be really hard to know what the best next step should be. Should you consider divorce? Would separation be helpful? Do you need to seek a counselor? Well, today’s guest, Dr. Greg Smalley, is a close friend and one of my favorite people to talk to on Java with Juli.
He’s been on the podcast many times before and is the Vice President of Marriage and Family Formation at Focus on the Family. He has decades of experience coaching and counseling couples and developing resources for them and really talking to them about how to protect and invest in marriage. Greg has a wealth of wisdom and he’s also just a super down-to-earth guy. So I just know you’re going to enjoy this conversation and learn a lot, whether this applies to you or somebody that you know who is currently in this situation.
Juli (01:26.926)
Well, Greg, thanks so much for always being willing to hop on Java with Juli. You know, we’ve had some fun conversations over the years. Sometimes Erin has joined you, but this time I get you solo.
Greg
And now it’s dangerous because she’s the better of the two of us.
Juli
She balances you out, but you’re awfully wise and fun just alone.
Juli
And the topic we’re going to tackle today is a hard one. It’s not a light topic. I wanted to talk to you about individuals or marriages who find themselves in the space of considering divorce. And this is obviously a spectrum, there are marriages that have been struggling for a long time. I think in recent years, we’ve seen a lot of younger marriages where it’s just marriage is not what they thought it would be. And within five to seven years, they’re not sure if they’re going to make it. Yeah. And we might be talking to just one person in that equation, either the person who wants out of the marriage or the person who wants to keep it together. So that’s kind of where we’re headed today. I don’t know if you even have some initial thoughts as I introduce that topic.
Greg
Yeah, I tell you for Erin and I mean, we’ve been married now 32 years. In there was probably three, four years into our marriage. We were there. I really didn’t think we were going to stay married.
I knew Erin one, didn’t like me because of what we were going through. Our hearts were really shut down to each other. And I just thought we were one more big kind of argument, big blow up away from her leaving. And so I just remember that season and how dark it felt, how confusing it felt. I I just remember going, you know, ‘God, did I not hear you right? What did I miss here? Maybe I wasn’t supposed to marry Erin.’
Greg
Maybe it’s me, maybe it’s her, maybe it’s just we can’t figure this out. Like I was just so confused. I couldn’t wrap my head around why can we not make this work? Because, you know, I mean, all of us stand at the altar going, hey, this is where this is a lifelong covenant and we’re going to have an awesome marriage full of ups and downs, certainly. But I never thought that we’d get to that place to where I just didn’t think we were going to make it.
Greg (03:46.486)
And so I, I’ve, I remember feeling that way. We walked with our oldest daughter through a divorce. And so that even gave me a different perspective on just what that’s like, especially for a daughter who was really wanting to make the marriage work and had a spouse that was unwilling. And so that helped me see things very differently. And that, again, it’s all, those are such hard seasons. I know it was a long time ago.
Juli
But what do you think it was that kept you in the marriage when you felt like it wasn’t gonna work?
Greg
Yeah, I think for me, again, unique to who I was, I was finishing up my doctorate to go into the marriage and family world. I mean, my father was a guy named Gary Smalley. And so I had all these dreams of working with him and doing marriage stuff and teaching about marriage. And so it was hard for me to go. That’s what I’m dreaming about doing. So I didn’t think that I could get divorced. And so I just figured we would somehow figure this out. So I think that it created some constraints for me. You know, there was no abuse going on. There was no infidelity. There was nothing like that. We just were, we were so horrible at working through our differences. And so the conflict we would get into, we just we were both kind of fighters.
And so it would just escalate. Again, no abuse. It wouldn’t get to that level. But I just remember thinking, you know, I don’t know what to do. It just, divorce never occurred to me because I’m like, well, then I can’t do what I’m, what I want to do in life. And which wasn’t true per se. I mean, I think I could have done those things, but it just, that constraint.
You know, there’s a guy, Dr. Scott Stanley has written a lot about commitment and talks about their times when the marriage hits those really, really hard times, that there can be just some natural constraints. Either we’re worried about the kids and what the impact will do, so we wait, or religiously, so God doesn’t want this for me, and so we’re gonna wait. So there can be some of that that actually can help turn things around.
Greg (06:06.818)
That’s the big thing between cohabitation and marriage is that it’s very easy to walk away from that kind cohabitating relationship versus, you know, it’s not easy to walk away from a marriage. some of that constraint can actually help. The research shows for lot of couples who were really at a bad place, who waited for whatever reason, five years later, those couples were back on track and they were feeling much better and growing in their marriage. So I’m just thankful that for me that constraint, you know, of well, you know, what will this look like to my dad or what will this look like to what I’m trying to go into? And it helped me to not jump ship and bail.
Juli
Yeah, you’re absolutely right. Sometimes it’s financial constraints of, right. I can’t support this family or, you know, reputational: what will my church think, what my family think. And sometimes that does keep us in a marriage when it’d be easier to jump out. And I think part of what we’re seeing today is some of those constraints are falling. You know, like there’s not so much of a taboo anymore, even within Christian communities for divorce. And actually there can be pockets within the church that are kind of promoting, like if you’re not happy, maybe this isn’t the one God has for you.
And so, you know, think when younger marriages, when you’re hitting that, you know, three to five year, this is really hard. I don’t know if I knew who I was marrying. We’re seeing fewer and fewer that have reason to stay and work it out like you did.
Greg
Yeah. Yeah. And it’s so unfortunate because happiness is such a poor target for a marriage. You know, I’m a huge proponent of happiness. But as a goal for a marriage, that’s so elusive. Because what does it mean when you’re not happy? Then does it mean something’s wrong or we weren’t meant to be together or we need to find someone who will make us happy? It’s a really tough goal versus understanding that marriage isn’t about pursuing happiness. It’s about finding this person that I want to spend my life with, making that commitment, going so you know, let’s keep growing.
Greg (08:24.482)
Let’s experience the highs, the lows, you know, all of that is a part of the journey. And my hope is that really my, always tell my kids, cause you see that idea of happiness every single, like, you know, we came off of Christmas and so, you know, all these Hallmark Christmas movies or, just all these romantic movies are telling you, you will hear, ‘Well, I just want you to be happy or I just want my son, my daughter to be happy’. Like you hear that constantly. That’s so reinforced. And I always tell my kids, you know, honestly, that’s not my goal for you. I want you to grow.
And, you know, when, when you lived nearby us here in Colorado, you remember the beautiful mountains and, know, as you hike up those mountains, there’s less and less growth up there. It just kind of becomes rocks at like 13,000 feet. You’re having a mountain top experience, but there’s no growth there. Growth happens in the valley. That is so true for marriage. Like Erin and I don’t grow when everything’s going great and we’re having these really mountain top, fun, high experiences. It’s gonna grow. We’re gonna grow when we’re struggling and working through something. And to me, that’s what my hope is for my kids is to say, I hope you enjoy your spouse and have so much fun. I hope you experience happiness, but man, focus on growing as individuals and as a couple. Make that your goal, your pursuit.
Juli
Greg, I think another kind of snapshot of what can happen when somebody is considering divorce is they’ve been married a long time and they’ve had some good seasons. They’ve had some hard seasons but they’re just tired. And maybe it’s been the kids that have held them together, but something changes, perhaps it’s the empty nest, but they come to the conclusion that we’ve outgrown each other. We no longer feel compatible. Maybe I married you in a season where you really were meeting some needs for me, but I don’t have those needs anymore. Or we’ve grown apart over the years. How do you counsel somebody who finds themself in that situation?
Greg (10:43.566)
Yeah, it makes sense. There’s always going to be a natural drift in all of our relationships. We’re busy. And when we put our time and effort into careers and kids and hobbies and church and friends and whatever that list is, it would make total sense for someone to feel that way. But I tell you that the beautiful part is that, you know, what was neglected is the curiosity, the discovery. I love in 1 Peter 3, talking to husbands where it says ‘live with your wife in an understanding way’. If you take that word understanding and really explore kind of that Greek meaning, then another word that works there is knowledgeable. And so part of what we’re being encouraged to do, I know for me as a husband is to live with my wife, to live with Erin in a knowledgeable way. That requires an ongoing intentional pursuit of staying current and updated, knowing that she’s constantly changing, I’m changing, our marriage is changing, life is changing. And sadly, if we’re just drifting through life together and we’re not being intentional, it’s most certainly can feel like, just we’re so married, we’re married roommates, we’re just different people now. And that is true.
Greg
And what is also true, it’s like, for my wife, for Erin right now, she’s getting her doctorate. And so it’s been so much fun to see her over the last two years, you know, growing, learning, becoming knowledgeable. Look what she’s done in two years. Well, what if we did that in our marriage? So what if we say, okay, yeah, we’ve drifted so far apart. It’s knowledge that’s going to bring us back. It’s that idea of going, want to rediscover you. That takes time. That takes effort, but that is 100 % doable. That’s as simply about going, all right, let’s start rediscovering each other. And we promote, there’s even fun ways to do that. know, just grab conversation starters. I mean, just Google marriage conversation starters, start there. So there, Juli, there’s ways to where a couple that has felt like they’re so far drifted apart, that’s very easy to come back together. And now you get to learn and fall in love all over again.
Greg (13:03.946)
It’s how we first met and fell in love. We spent all this time learning and asking and being curious with each other. That happened in the beginning. That can most certainly happen now.
Juli
Yeah, I believe what you’re saying that it can. I think what sometimes is difficult though is when we first fell in love, we didn’t have years of resentment and baggage. So you you even said the phrase, ‘I want to learn about you. I want to discover together’. There are some people who can’t say that. Like, ‘I don’t want to be with you’. Like ‘I, I feel hurt’. ‘I feel like you don’t meet my needs’. ‘I don’t feel safe with you’. And so even the invitation to reignite a flame has some hurdles to get over. How would you? Yeah. I mean, that’s a person that’s like, ‘Maybe I do better off starting with somebody else’, or even better off being alone. And they might even say, you know, like, ‘I don’t want to stay in this marriage just because I have to, like I’ll be miserable for the rest of my life’. And I’m sure you’ve met with people who have felt that way.
Greg
100%. We just, we were working with a couple the other day, exactly as you described that, just saying, ‘We’re, miserable. We’ve grown so far apart. We don’t feel like we have anything in common’. And so I think to your point, I think evaluating, what’s the, maybe what are the barriers there? Like you said, I mean, if it’s that I don’t feel safe, so I’m never really not gonna open up to be known, to be seen. I mean, that’s different. So, I mean, that’s when you would want to go in and really work with a good Christian counselor to go, how do we create a marriage that feels like the safest place on earth? I mean, what’s missing? What are we doing? It feels unsafe to each other.
Because 100 % I mean, if two people are willing and we’ve just drifted, we just need to spend some time rediscovering each other. Great. Do that. But you’re right, if conflict has been so poorly handled, and we just don’t feel safe with each other, we need help to work through that and to figure that out. I would say don’t do that alone. mean, really go get some good help. And there’s great help out there.
Greg (15:22.616)
You know, if there’s been betrayal, there’s been whatever those issues are, if trust has been broken, man, let’s identify what seems to be the barrier here and there’s great help if both people are willing. So the logical question is, okay, so what if it’s just you? Like when my daughter, she 100 % was open to getting any sort of help, but her partner was not and he was unwilling to do anything. And that’s such a hard reality for some.
I think if that’s going on, I would always say at some point a boundary needs to be put in place to shake the system up. so Erin wrote this fantastic article about a healing separation that I think is one of the most powerful tools for a couple who one is so unwilling to get help, so just so committed to doing the same old same old. And so for that person who’s just going, ‘I’m not willing to exist like this anymore’, I praise you. I go, ‘awesome’. Don’t keep trying to do the same thing, hoping that it’ll create new something different. I mean, we tongue in cheek joke about that being sort of the definition of insanity, doing the same thing, hoping for different results. To that person, I would say, ‘Shake the system up’. Systems fight so hard to stay the same. Systems don’t like to change.
Greg
You think of the Israelites coming out of the wilderness or coming out of Egypt. You know, at what point did they start grumbling like, well, we’re better off back in slavery. You know, let’s go back because it was familiar and they knew how to do life, although it was horrible. And same thing for our marriage. You know, we can get used to whatever is going on, whatever system we’ve created. But I would say to that person who’s saying this, this isn’t working for me anymore. Great.
Do something then. And if that means going, listen, I’m not willing to do this. And so I’m gonna file a healing separation. If you’re willing to go in and get help with me, awesome, I’d love to do that. But I’m not just willing to keep sitting here doing nothing. And that’s not healthy good for either person. And so that can be, Juli, a great next step for someone to go, ‘I’m serious. Like, this is serious’.
Greg (17:48.366)
There’s ways to do that and that requires a counselor that healing separation is something you do with the guidance of a counselor so it’s not just a precursor, a first step towards divorce. It’s actually intended to create Healing and growth and change within a system that’s no longer working for one or for both.
Juli
Yeah, it kind of creates a crisis where yeah, we can’t pretend that things are going well. Yeah, talk to me for a minute about why a person would stay in a marriage like that. Let’s say there isn’t an infidelity, there isn’t abuse, it’s just not fulfilling. And I think particularly, like I’m thinking of an influencer that I follow on social media, who’s married for a couple decades, had kids, they quote-unquote grew apart, you know, like, we’re just not good for each other anymore. And then the social media feed is filled with you know, highlights with a new boyfriend and how wonderful this is and how much better life is now. And I think we get those messages a lot, particularly, you know, couple of decades in a marriage where you start to think, well, maybe I would be a lot more fulfilled in another relationship. So why is that not the best route to go?
Greg
Yeah, I think that one, the research that’s been done talking to people who’ve gone through a divorce, Juli, most often, I mean lots of them. So I can’t remember the percentage, but enough to where it makes you go, wow, say, ‘Man, I wish I would have done something else. I wish I wouldn’t have walked away, you know, even if it’s quick or like you said, a very long term, there’s the grasses is I’ve never seen the grass is greener on the other side, you know’.
And again, we always feel responsible to qualify that. I’m not talking about in the case where there’s abuse. So I’m not talking about that at all. That’s never okay. That’s horrendous. I don’t support that focus on the family doesn’t support that if you’re in an abusive relationship like that, you need to leave and get help and deal in the safety of the individuals are are more important than that marriage. And I always say, God sent his son to die for people, not for marriage.
Greg (20:09.182)
And so in an abusive relationship, that breaks his heart, that breaks my heart for you. you’re right that there’s courage there to say that I’m not willing to be abused like that anymore. But so outside of that, wherever we go, there we are. So it’s rare to, unless you’re married to a complete sociopath or something, that two people create the system that we’re living in.
And wherever I go, there I am, I’m bringing all that stuff. If I’m not getting the help I need to deal with my side of the stuff, you’re just walking that into a new relationship. And that’s why for a lot of people, they’re like, well, you know, recreated a lot of what was going on in the first marriage and the second marriage. And, you know, I wish I would have stayed and got the help. So I think there can be, there can be some of that, you know, if we share children, you know, it’s not that you’re never going to see this person ever again.
Greg
You, you’ve got to learn to get along and figure that out. So I mean, that’s, that’s an ongoing reality. So I, the hope is to go, you know, can we go and get the help that we need? And that’s the ideal. And I know that one, just one of you might be willing, but that’s when you say, okay, I’m not going to keep it just existing then in this miserable place. Like, let’s go get help. And if not, then I’m going to separate. Hopefully again, that’ll shake things up to where there’s some willingness, but I never, Juli, I don’t know about you, but I just, you know, people ask me, they’ll lay out their situation. ‘What do you think? Should, you know, do you think I should get divorced?’ And I have never in my life, nor would I ever say, oh yeah or no, because that’s between you and the Lord. You know, I, I hope that I can be used to answer a lot of questions and help you think it through, but I’m not going to tell you one way or the other, nor should anybody.
Like if someone’s telling you, I think you should do this and that’s between you and the Lord. You’re the one that’s going to stand before the Lord and answer for that And so that needs to be a very clear thing between you and the Lord not because someone else did it. Juli divorce is contagious. We know that, we know that when friend groups when someone divorces, when a pastor divorces it just throws people and there can be some of that: well that person did it that I know and love huh, maybe so.
Greg (22:32.014)
It’s just recognizing that this is hard. I mean, you started by saying this is not a fun, ha ha conversation we’re gonna have. mean, this is a tough deal because, you know, couples who are at that place, one or both hearts are probably pretty hardened. You know, Jesus talks about that in the Bible. You know, well, Moses permitted you to divorce because the hardness of your heart. I mean, he says that’s not the way it was in the beginning.
And when we first start off in a relationship, our hearts are open. We’re probably feeling pretty safe. And then over time, whatever’s going on, hearts begin to close and over time they harden. And that’s a pretty dangerous place when your heart is hardened to make decisions about your marriage. That’s a tough way to do that because you’re so shut down, which is why I go and go in and talk to a good counselor and help that. I ideally, you would do the work to one, get your heart back open. Yeah. And make decisions then when your heart is open and you’re connected to the Lord and you’re praying that through. I mean, that’s ideal.
I always tell people who are going through hard married seasons that honestly, your greatest battle is to keep your heart open. Because you can see someone who’s, you know, praying faithfully, ‘God, restore my marriage’, who’s invested, ‘I want to do anything, I want to grow’. And at some point, they get so discouraged that their heart shuts down and starts to harden. And then all of a it’s like you see the other person finally wakes up and goes, ‘Okay, now I’m ready’. And now you’ve got that first person where their heart’s been allowed to harden. And it makes sense. And I get it. So there’s no judgment there.
Greg
But I just encourage people, your greatest battle through this thing is to keep your own heart open. That’s got to be something you’re thinking about, and really protecting and guarding.
Juli
Okay, so how would you keep your heart open and keep yourself safe at the same time? And again, we’re not talking about abuse situations, but a situation where you really are praying and wanting this marriage to be healed.
Juli (24:46.186)
Maybe for years and your spouse is not open or a situation where there’s been betrayal and fidelity perhaps like ongoing pornography use and again your desire is for healing and reconciliation but you’re like I don’t know if I’m just gonna get hurt again I don’t know if I’m setting myself up for another fall, yeah.
Greg
Which makes sense. And that’s why I say probably one of the greatest skills that we can ever learn in a marriage is how do we care for our own heart? What are we doing? Are we paying attention to our guts and our intuition? Are we paying attention to our emotions? Are we setting boundaries? You know, a Christ-like boundary is we put something in place inside of our marriage or whatever relationship solely to keep our heart open.
You know, it’s not about erecting walls. It’s actually saying, hey, my heart matters and this is happening and that’s not okay. Sometimes it’s putting a boundary by saying, ‘I’m no longer going to stay in conversations to where you expressing your emotions is at my expense’. Just not willing to do that. That’s not caring for me or for you. So it could be that sort of boundary, but boundaries are intended to help us keep our hearts open.
So part of going, I want my heart so well cared for, is not only are you paying attention to your emotions, I’m feeling, know, whatever, so discouraged, I’m feeling, you know, so unimportant, so worthless, so whatever. And you’re really caring for those emotions that you’re putting boundaries in place. You’re trusting your guts and your intuition on things, because it’s so easy often, especially for women, I think. I mean, you can, it’s probably better coming from you. But you know, it seems like for a lot of women, just, you know, it’s so hard to trust that gut because we’ve been, you know, not we, but for women, you know, get that thrown in their face or just constantly told that’s not true, and almost gaslit, whatever. So it’s boundaries, caring for your heart helps to keep your heart open. A community, you cannot do this alone.
Greg (27:04.152)
You’ve got to have good-same sex, friends that are safe and trustworthy and will hold all this in confidence who won’t turn on your spouse, but who are there to care for you, to encourage you, to create some accountability, I mean all that. I think those are the kinds of things that when we’re doing it, that we’re really caring for our hearts, we’re doing the kinds of self-care things. What do we need to do to find rest? What gives me life? What fills me up and recharges me? I think all of that in the season of a difficult marriage is what you’re doing to be so well-cared for that your heart is gonna stay open to what God may be doing in your spouse. And you know, we’ve got that confidence. We have a God of this universe, All-powerful, who is right there with you with your spouse. He’s passionate about marriage. He’s passionate about your marriage, and you just never know the timing of when he’s gonna move someone’s heart. That’s why I say therefore man, really, really be thinking about how am I caring for my heart so that I’ve got some confidence there I can stay in this situation a little bit longer with certain boundaries set. And that’s ideal.
Greg
But that you know, Juli, no one teaches us to do that, right?
Juli
No, they don’t.
Greg
Not concept to a lot of people.
Juli
Yeah, it is. So that’s why you can go into counseling. A counselor, a good counselor is going to help you do that. And I like the distinction you made between boundaries and walls. And when we don’t have boundaries, we get to the place where like, I’ve tried everything. I’m tired of getting hurt. And you put up a big wall. And boundaries keep you from that place. I agree with you, Greg, that I don’t give advice of you should get a divorce, you shouldn’t get a divorce. Like, I feel like especially counseling somebody to get a divorce, like that’s heavy. But I do think it’s helpful for people who are in that place to have some principles not just like go figure it out you know, trust your gut, that sort of thing. We do need principles, so what are some principles that you would encourage somebody to consider? Biblical principles and also just wise principles in terms of if you’re in that place here are some things that you should be considering.
Greg (29:29.12)
Yeah. I think that again, to keep my heart open, so a principle is an open heartedness, understand that God is speaking to us, that God is caring for us, and I need to keep my heart open. I want to be so well connected to the Lord that I’m hearing that still small voice, I’m sensitive to the Holy Spirit, and therefore I want to have community. Community is so important as we do this because I don’t trust myself.
You know when Erin and were really struggling, you know, it made sense in my own mind to go, know She’s got issues that probably is never gonna change So it probably is better to you know cut bait and move on now before we have kids or whatever and so just making sure that I recognize the power and the wisdom of having wise counsel in my life through a pastor a mentor a counselor good friends in so I think being understanding as as Jesus laid out, you know, reasons for divorce, really understanding what those are. Because you could ask the theologians, and oftentimes they’re gonna give you a little bit of a different answer of, what does this one really mean? Or what constitutes abuse? Is it physical only or emotional as well? So I think really understanding that, and that could be a thing where you talk to your pastor and get some good wisdom around just, ‘As I’m thinking about this, is this permissible in terms of what God’s Word says?’ That matters. And I think you said this earlier, is that we are, especially our Christian culture, we’re just, you know we’ve moved to a place of just, it’s not taboo. There’s just reasons I hear a lot from well-meaning Christians, and I’m like, man, that is not biblical, though. And this isn’t to say, therefore, you need to stay stuck and you need to stay in an abusive relationship. This is going, that’s a part of your responsibility between you and the Lord is to understand what He’s saying. And therefore, ‘God, what does this look like in my life unique to me?’ I think that creates that integrity that you’re looking for. I think principles of integrity of who am I, who did God create me to be, and how do I want to show up right now in this really hard season? Because it’s so easy to begin from behind those walls to fling arrows and go on the offensive and go on the attack and compromise who God made me to be.
Greg (31:52.652)
It makes so much sense when we’re really hurting and hearts are closed that we can say and do things that aren’t integral. It’s not who we are. And pay attention to that. Am I doing things that are so unlike me and how do I step back and get the help that I need to get my heart back open and well cared for so I don’t show up like that? Because like for my daughter, I remember there was a moment, what Taylor was going through, that at some point as they were dividing of assets, he said to her, ‘Well, hey, and don’t be all like, you’re the only one who doesn’t want to divorce because you’re not’. And so she heard that like, great, let’s go get help. My parents can get us into Hope Restored, a marriage intensive program, like today. And he goes, ‘Yeah, you know, I thought about that, but I’ve decided you’re just not worth it’.
And you know, I mean as a dad, one, hearing about that, you know, made me want to go, how could I hide his body and actually get away with it? But beyond that, just go and recognize that Satan is all over marriage issues and in those hard seasons and he wants to spread those lies and get them etched deeply within our hearts. And so for Taylor, you know, a part of what she had to really start doing is, God, what is your truth here? What’s your truth about me, about this marriage, about this person who I, you know, is so hurting me? And so even that spiritual warfare of just being aware of that, Satan is going to go after you with lies, that you’re a failure, that you’re not worth it, whatever those might be. And so even within that, I feel like I’m rambling and I’m all over the board. But that just came to mind that that’s a big part of the battle, going ‘I know Satan is after my heart my mind and he’s gonna try to use these lies of what’s going on to further shut me down’. And so just battle that stuff again great counselors can help you do that.
Juli
Yeah, but you’re giving great counsel Greg. You’re not rambling at all. You know when and whenever I’m in the middle of spiritual battles, I always know there’s lies involved And so I learned to ask the question.
Juli (34:14.542)
Okay what is the lie on believing or being tempted to believe? And a lot of times, particularly if it’s a really hard situation, I can’t see it for myself. And as you’re saying, that’s why we need the outside ears and eyes to tell us, hey, this is what I see or this is what I hear you saying. That discernment that can come from good counselors, a good mentor, a pastor, and certainly community.
And unfortunately, sometimes when we find ourselves in that situation of considering divorce, being in that place of pain, we react to pain by withdrawing. And so we withdraw from our communities. We don’t want to tell anybody what we’re going through because there’s a lot of shame. And so we’re trying to make this decision isolated, which makes it worse.
Greg
Yeah. You know, Erin and I, every year we try to do something to grow and. And so we, as we were seeing a counselor, nothing going on. We just want to grow. And one of my big takeaways from our time with this person is she said that pain always deserves a response. And I think what’s so true about that is that first and foremost, my pain, I can always respond to my pain. And by doing a lot of what we’re talking about, I think, you know, I wrote two books, “How to Win Your Husband Back”, “How to Win Your Wife Back”, and interviewed hundreds of people who had kind of been through that journey a lot successfully, some not, and their marriage wasn’t restored. But they all said the same thing, is that the turning point was when they really stopped focusing, which sounds weird, but they stopped focusing on the marriage and really started focusing on their growth as an individual and allowed God to do the work in them, their blind spots.
You know, their pain deserves that response that he can give, people can give. Your spouse may not be willing to give and respond to your pain, but you can. The Lord always will. Your good close same sex friends and counselors, all that. And so that was a huge just takeaway because for me, you know, as Erin and I, you know, repair, you know, an argument or whatever, it’s easy for me to want to move beyond that so quickly and then into some sort of solution or what are we gonna do about it?
Greg (36:36.642)
But this counselor going, ‘Greg, slow down, her pain deserves a response from you’. And I would say, and it deserves one first and foremost from our own self. And that’s part of the growth as an individual that you can’t experience. Let’s say your marriage isn’t restored. Man, you can come out of this a healthier, closer to the Lord person because you’re focusing then on the right thing.
I always tell people the worst question they ask is, how can I have a better marriage? The best question is, how can I be a better husband? How can I be a better wife? Because we have control within that. Erin and I have to be willing to invest into our marriage to create a marriage that we both love. But I can always figure out, Lord, how do you want me to grow right now as a husband? Even if she’s not willing, what can I do? And I think there’s some hope there, first and foremost.
Juli
Well, if you are struggling to figure out what’s not working in your marriage, Greg has some great insights for you to consider. Maybe you need to prioritize so that you’re able to spend time together regularly. Maybe you need to meet with a counselor to help you navigate conflict. Maybe you need to stop isolating yourself and allow godly community to pour into you so that there’s counsel and comfort in the stage that you’re in right now.
Or maybe you need to set a really hard boundary, like a separation, that allows you to bring attention to what’s going wrong in your marriage. Whatever your next step is, the most important thing is to invite God into this. I encourage you to be prayerful, to be humble, and to invite the Holy Spirit to guide and lead you. Don’t go through this in your own strength and wisdom. We’ve linked to the article that Erin wrote called Healing Separation in the show notes, along with another Focus on the Family resource for couples or individuals who are considering divorce.
You can also connect with Greg through the additional resources in the show notes. If you like this episode, we’ve linked to a conversation last year I had with Toni and Cary Nieuwhof on the topic of what to think about before divorcing. If you’re not a member of Authentic Intimacy, you’re not going to be able to access that episode. It’s part of our Java with Juli Archive.
Juli (38:55.512)
But you can learn more about becoming a member through the link in our show notes. And if you’re not already a member, we’ve also linked to a more recent episode with Laura Petherbridge about life after divorce, which is also very insightful.
Well, that’s it for this week. Next week, I’ll be talking all about cultivating a godly vision of the goodness of sex with Francie Winslow. It’s going to be an episode that’s very helpful, especially if you’ve wrestled with maybe some of the fallout of shame from the purity culture. So thanks so much for joining me today and I’ll see you next week for more Java with Juli.
