There are so many challenges that come with leading a church well, especially when it comes to how to express their stance on Biblical sexuality. Many want to be a place where people can wrestle with the truth about God and sex and figure things out, while also being sure to prioritize biblical orthodoxy. How can they do both?
Pastor Evan Wickham, from Park Hill Church in San Diego, joined Juli to share lessons he’s learned and what his church is doing to lead biblically with clarity and love.
Prefer to listen? Listen to the full episode here.
Juli (00:01.806)
Hey friend, welcome to Java with Juli, hosted by me, Juli Slattery. This podcast is supported by you, our listening community, and we are an outreach of the nonprofit ministry, Authentic Intimacy, which is dedicated to helping people navigate sexual issues from a biblical perspective. You know, one of the main challenges in our day is that churches don’t know how to express a biblical and loving stance on sexuality.
On the one hand, they want to present a welcome door, a friendly face, just compassion to people who might be struggling with any kind of sexual issue. They want to invite people to come and learn about God and learn about His design for life, including sexuality. But on the other hand, it’s so critical that we’re clear on what the scripture teaches on issues of sexuality. so churches are really struggling with, how do we do both? Is that even possible, to be both compassionate and loving and biblically solid? Well, joining me to answer that question is Pastor Evan Wickham. Evan pastors a church in San Diego and for the last eight years, he has been striving alongside his church staff to try to get this right. Now, let me just let you know, this conversation of biblical sexuality and church culture is such a difficult one and there’s a good chance that Evan might say something or I might say something that you disagree with.
But I feel like we really need to have these conversations with people who are leaning into the scripture, leaning into the leading of the Holy Spirit, that we need to be unified as we pursue what it actually looks like to walk out and teach a biblical sexual ethic in today’s day and age. The research is showing that somewhere between 20 and 30 % of Gen Zs identifies LGBTQ. So this is not a sign line issue, it’s a very important one for Christians to wrestle with together and to really seek to honor the Lord. So let’s dive into my conversation with Pastor Evan Wickham.
Juli (02:06.318)
Well, Evan, thanks so much for joining me for this podcast. And I think the interviews that I most look forward to are interviews on Java with Juli where I feel like I am learning. And this is one of those conversations that I’m excited to learn. So you’ve been a pastor in Portland, is that right? Or San Diego. First you started in Portland, then San Diego for how many years?
Evan
Yeah, well, I first started in San Diego, actually, born and raised here, my wife too. And we’re both 43 years old now, but when we were in 1920, we started in youth ministry, youth pastors, and then worship leaders. And then in our thirties, we moved to Portland, where we were trained to plant a church back home in San Diego again. So we spent four years in Portland. Maybe some of your listeners might know the name, John Mark Comer. He’s been a longtime friend of mine in Sandy’s and his wife, Tammy. And so they invited us to come up and just embed in that culture and kind of absorb some of the missional mindset that they had embodied in their context and bring it back to San Diego and plant a church. And it’s been a beautiful thing to watch Jesus build his kingdom. And yeah, we’ve been in San Diego now having planted our church for like seven years. We’re in year eight, which is wild.
Juli
Wow, wow, that’s great. Congratulations, you got through the seven year-itch. I don’t know if that’s true in church planting as well as marriage, but there’s something about it.
Evan
Well, when there’s a global pandemic in there somewhere, it definitely complicates the seven years. I don’t know if it was seven years or like 70.
Juli (03:37.944)
Sure. Yeah. Yeah. I had the chance to live out in California for a few years and I went out there thinking, okay, like this is super liberal. I’m never going to find a Christian here. And I was in the LA area and I actually found that there were like, there’s lots of churches. I mean, that’s where a lot of church movements started and nonprofits started. But I feel like my experience was that a lot of churches that are in kind of traditionally more liberal areas are kind of stalwarts of, you know, like orthodoxy and stand against culture. And then you have other newer churches who are more like trying to be hip and relate, but they lose some orthodoxy in that process. And as I’ve watched like what John Mark Comer is doing, what you’re doing, you know, I think there seems to be this real like striving for how do we follow Jesus and be faithful in our orthodoxy while still being relevant to what’s happening around us.
Evan
That’s well said. Yeah, during our time in Portland, it really did feel like that. It felt like the ethos of secularism and progressivism was so thick and palpable that to gather as the Church of Jesus Christ, confessing that Jesus is the unique, He’s uniquely God and God has come incarnated in Jesus. And then Jesus, you know, He gave us a way to live and He taught us, and gave us his spirit to obey his teachings. But then he actually was crucified and was raised by God and attested to by witnesses. And now we’re like inheritors of this great tradition in Portland. And so are we just going to pretend like we’re semi inheritors of this tradition or full inheritors, you know, of the great tradition of orthodoxy?
Evan (05:40.268)
And it really is like, you know, there’s a crass expression I’m thinking, but it’s really like do it or get off the pot, you know? Like be an image bearer of God revealing Christ or not. And Portland really did have a distilling power on churches, which is why you, I think it’s partly why you see ministries like the Bible Project and author Josh Ryan Butler. And then, know, obviously Tim Mackey, the Bible Project, Tyler State and John Mark, all these really beautiful expressions of what it means to follow Jesus. Courageous fidelity to orthodoxy in an age of moral compromise.
Yeah, it was beautiful to live up there and then kind of be back to San Diego where interesting in San Diego, there’s a lot more mega churches, a lot more Christendom culturally, which can pose its own challenges and have its benefits.
Juli
Yeah, for sure. Okay, so where the rubber meets the road with a lot of this is how we live, you know, particularly, think sexuality is sort of the tip of the spear for these conversations. And that’s really what I want to talk to you about today. As a church leader, first of all, I think there are a lot of church leaders and lot of churches who don’t know where to take a stand on sexual issues, how to take a stand. There’s a lot of fear that if we do take a stand, we’re going to be labeled a certain kind of church. And from watching me from a distance, you’ve really navigated this well. And I’m sure you’re still navigating it. But I’d love for us to even start with the need for church leaders and for churches to seek clarity on their own stands related to sexual issues.
Evan
Yeah, you said at the beginning that you’re coming into this conversation in a posture of learning and if that’s true then I truly am. I mean you have so much to teach me and those that are listening about this. Don’t be surprised if I ask you questions too. Yeah, so I’d love to hear what you think but for us, you know, our church began in 2017-2018.
Juli (07:32.61)
That’s good.
Evan (07:45.996)
And there was a large influx of young people that came, we started immediately praying for older generations to come to balance out, to create a multi-generational church of spiritual fathers and mothers, discipling those that would come after them, because we had so many young people. And with that, a lot of progressive angst and extremely culturally relevant questions. so from the beginning, they’re like, hey, is this, phrase the question however you want: Is this a safe place for my gay friends? Is this a place where trans people can serve? Is this all the identity, sexual, LGBTQ questions you can imagine? was like 90 % of the conversations we were having. And so we realized that, you know, rather than answer them one coffee meeting at a time, because that can be scary for people when they ask a question that’s very tender to them and the answer they get in an email is, well, you gotta meet with the pastor for 45 minutes.
Juli
Yeah.
Evan
Like, no, like clear, I love that phrase: clear is kind and unclear is unkind. And so we chose to be clear on orthodoxy. What does it mean to stand in the great tradition of Jesus? Jesus stood with Moses who defined marriage as a lifelong covenant bond between two sexually opposite persons, a male and a female. And through that bond, God would glorify and reveal something unique about himself to the world, the kind of covenant relationship he wants with his church.
And then that means any sexual activity outside of that male-female union is what the Bible calls pornea, sexual immorality. you the Greek translation of the Old Testament is very clear. It’s the same word in the New Testament, pornea. And so this is nothing new to you, but this is how we say it from the pulpit in our church from the beginning. Is that “pornea” is this word that encapsulates all sexual activity outside of that marital union that God has created an effort to reveal himself to the world.
Evan (09:42.274)
So then everybody asks questions from there, like, what does that mean for singles? What does that mean for gay people? What does that mean for me? And like, can I bring my non-binary brother or sister to this church? And how will they be treated? Even if they’re not totally clear on if they disagree with the elders teaching here. Like, can this be a place where people work out in fear and trembling where they stand with Jesus in their bodies? And so that is when we started this really helpful, I think, part of our church ministry called Basics Class. And we boiled down our whole pipeline for entering a community group into this class. Like, if you want to belong here, absolutely. Follow Jesus here with us. Just go to this Basics Class where you hear every bit of clarity you deserve on what it means to follow Jesus. And you can ask questions anonymously through this software while you’re there. And a pastor will answer and you can keep your identity anonymous., and we will create a space for you to process in safety. And then at that point, if you’re like, wow, I don’t think I can get him bored with what apparently is orthodoxy. Then at that point, you have a shame-free moment where you can just opt out of following Jesus with us. Where there’s that clarity and people have thanked us for that on their way out, which is both sad, but also so thankful that they didn’t find that out two years in, you know.
Evan
So maybe I’m getting ahead of the conversation, but I found that coming right out of the gate, and we didn’t do this for the first six months of the year and we did confuse people, we found out that clarity up front right out of the gate is so loving. Jesus is our ultimate authority. As followers of Jesus, our highest goal is to live faithfully to Him in every area of life. And Jesus addresses fewer topics with more clarity than that of sex and marriage.
We would invite people into that conversation from a decidedly orthodox perspective. And then we’d say, do you have to agree with everything we just said in order to like keep figuring it out here? Absolutely not. Like there’s just a line of leadership that you cannot cross until there’s holistic agreement. But below that line, if you’re like, I don’t even know if I believe in a Trinity, let alone male-female marriage, well then, I’m so glad you’re here.
Evan (12:06.242)
That’s amazing that you’re here figuring out whether you believe Jesus was God and you’re here week in and week out and you want to go to a community group with under leaders who disagree with you and you’re still wanting to work out your faith. Yes, more power to you. That’s maturity. Holding yourself in that tension is serious maturity. We cheer you on in that. As long as you know, the elders of our church absolutely have an agenda for your life here. And that is discipleship in the way of Jesus, which includes marriage and singleness and everything else Jesus talked about. So there you go, we just try to front load with clarity, because we learned in the beginning ambiguity really, even real intention, like all are welcome type statements, just end up with collateral damage.
Juli
Yeah, well, a couple things that jump out to me from what you said. First of all, the way you phrase your position on orthodoxy and marriage and sexuality, you didn’t just say, like, we believe that sex is between a man and a woman in marriage. I mean, essentially, you got to that point. But even in a few sentences, you gave a framework of the Lordship of Jesus, how he calls us to follow him in everything.
You know, how God reveals through the way he made male and female in the covenant of marriage. And you said it very briefly, I’m guessing, when you have the opportunity, you unpack some of that. But I think that some of what is missing in a lot of more conservative older churches is they just have the statement of the sexual ethic without putting it into the context of the cult of discipleship. know, like why marriage and sexuality matter so much.
So you did that really well.
Evan (13:57.108)
Wow, that means a lot, come from you.
Juli
Yeah, I love the way you frame that. The next thing you said, you talk about that basics class. I’m guessing in the basics class, it’s not just about sexuality. It’s about what it is to be a father of Christ.
Evan
Correct, it’s a two and a half hour thing with breaks. And it’s just a beautiful time to pray. Actually, we just introduced a time of prayer into basic. I don’t know why we didn’t do that first, because we want people to experience what they will experience in a community group. If basics is the entryway to community groups, then taste and see. So there’s a time of prayer where certain people get prayer ministry. But there’s a 45 minute time of just describing like the nitty gritty of community life as Christians. Like we have the ideal where I’m gonna find my people and it’s gonna be amazing relationships and I’m gonna find healing in this church and we’re gonna have great dinners and I’m gonna be vulnerable and everybody’s gonna be vulnerable with me. And so that’s the ideal but then you get smacked upside the head by the real which is never the ideal. Sometimes maybe by God’s grace.
And so what does it look like to stick it out faithfully in the body of Christ, somewhere between the real and ideal all the time, believing the Holy Spirit is moving us together. We’re imperfect, He’s not, but He’s moving us toward Jesus. And so after describing our policy for like, what happens if egregious sin happens of any kind, not sexual, like, relational betrayal, happens? Jesus has discipleship pathways for this.
Evan (15:37.707)
Go directly to the person in love, Matthew 18. What does it look like to not be a call out culture, but a call higher culture? Like we don’t wanna call each other out. Like be afraid of when our brother and sister in Christ is gonna tell us we’re sinning. That’s not the call. But what does it look like to expect your brother or sister in Christ to cheer you on when they see maturity in your life? Like call each other high all the time. And within that, Jesus has pretty beautiful and clear and simple.
Juli
Okay.
Evan (16:07.438)
I don’t wanna call them formulas, but guidelines for how to sharpen each other and iron sharpening iron. And so that’s half of the course, the general discipleship stuff. And then we take a break and then we come back for what we call, what are the essentials of the faith? And the phrase I use, which I got from a book I read by Roger Olson, it’s called Against Theological Liberalism or something, Against Liberal Theology. And it’s such a good book.
And he says, basically, when you talk about the essentials of the faith, which not only includes the Trinity or Jesus as God, but also everything in the creeds, but also the ethic of Jesus. Like for 2000 years, those who are defined by orthodoxy live a certain way as it relates to marriage and singleness and loving your enemy and love, joy, peace, patience, fruit of the spirit. The way Olson says it is, if you were to remove any one of these beliefs from your life, you would no longer be recognizably Christian to any Christian who wrote anything down for 1900 years. I’m like, yeah, like, I’m like, wow, that’s a statement.
Juli
What a statement.
Evan
And so I ran that by like some of my theological mentors at Western seminary where I went, they’re like, that’s a pretty honest and accurate enough way to describe the essentials. Not saying if you have doubts, you’re going to hell. But I am saying if you consciously remove these essential doctrines and
Evan (17:36.98)
central ethics of Jesus from your life, then your life is no longer recognizably Christian to any Christian who wrote anything down for 1900 years. So I’ll say that at the basics class and that everybody’s interest has suddenly peaked. Like, wow, that’s very absolutist. I’m like, yeah, but there’s not that many things in that circle though. So many debatable things.
Juli
Okay.
Evan (18:04.846)
But the things within that essential circle there’s this beautiful thing called the great tradition. The Holy Spirit is alive. And Jesus said the Holy Spirit will guide you apostles in all truth. And guess what? He has. The third person of the Trinity has shown up in exactly the way Jesus told his apostles he would, by reminding his apostles of what Jesus taught, how Jesus lived, to the point where you get to Acts 2:42.
Evan (18:33.282)
And it says the church, devoted themselves, they continued steadfastly, not in Jesus’ doctrine, but the Apostles’ doctrine.
Juli
Yeah, boy, that’s true.
Evan
Yeah, even though it was Jesus’ doctrine, but Jesus, he knows the Holy Spirit in and out. He is very God with the Holy Spirit. know, I don’t know that Trinity is a mystery, but he knew that the Holy Spirit would act in such a way through these 12 hodgepodge disciples so as to carry on his own authority in the world through doctrine. And then the councils and the creeds are all the church revisiting. Who do you say that I am? Jesus asked us this.
Juli
Let me ask you with that, you’ve got three hours with these people, including a break. Why is sexuality that important to me part of the essentials? Like, I think I’ve been to classes like that, I’ve gone to new churches, and sometimes there are six weeks, you know, but if it’s three hours, they’re going to cover, you know, that Jesus is God, you know, the Trinity, sanctification, salvation, like all this stuff.
Juli (19:44.566)
And I don’t know that they would cover sexuality. In fact, they may avoid it to say, I don’t know if we want to get into that, like let’s just stick with theology.
Evan
They’ll avoid it in an upfront class, but they can’t avoid it when the gay couple comes up to them 18 months into their church membership and asks for premarital counseling. Their theology will then betray their methodology at that point, which is a painful place to put that precious gay couple in.
Juli
Okay.
Juli (20:23.822)
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Evan (21:02.094)
So we’ve chosen to front load our communication to anyone who’s seeking to follow Jesus in our community with clarity. So you asked, why is sexuality in the essentials? Well, I think, you I’d love to hear you answer that, but my answer would be, my gosh, like post sexual revolution, we’re asking that question, but pre 1960s USA, the global church of every stripe, every ethnicity, every culture, and language just takes it as a given.
Juli
Yeah.
Evan
For 1950 years, 1920 years or whatever, sexuality didn’t make it into the creeds. None of Jesus’ teachings did because those weren’t the ones being debated until now.
Juli
Yeah, it’s true.
Evan (21:49.784)
There’s a difference between doctrine and ethics, but there’s still an essential bucket that both the doctrine and ethics falls into. And there’s many ethics that are not essential. There’s things like, I have my opinions about violence and nonviolence and pacifism and just war, and that’s hotly debated. But honestly, there isn’t a unified witness of the church, as far as I know, on just war versus pacifism. There’s no unified church witness on that.
So many things like that, you know, there’s a raging debate about baptism, infant baptism versus believers baptism. And there’s leaders in our church that hold different views on that. And we choose to stay united through it and practice dual mode baptism in unity. Because, you know, arguably there’s many centuries of non unified church witness on that question.
Evan (22:48.034)
We just don’t have that diversity of thought as it relates to male-female marriage in the church until you have the sexual revolution in like our parents lifetime bringing that question into religious spaces for the first time in really niche progressive Western pockets of the world.
Juli
Yeah, that’s true.
Evan
Seems to me, if we were to call into question the essential nature, and I could be corrected on this, please let me know your thoughts, this is where I get into trouble, but it seems to me, in order to call into question the essential nature of marriage and singleness in the traditional sense, we would need 500 plus years of Holy Spirit-driven church diversity globally on that. And we just don’t have it. We especially don’t have it in the biblical witness. So that’s why, you know, I do think it’s true, you know, that if you were to remove the historic sexual ethic of Jesus from your belief set, that you would no longer be recognizably Christian to any Christian who wrote anything down until like 1965 or something.
Juli (23:36.162)
Okay.
Evan (23:55.532)
Yeah, so just standing there with unapologetic clarity and then moving quickly to what does that mean for my gay family member? Who I love and immediately move into the pastoral with honest like grief on their behalf and to answer your question, that’s a long way of answering.
Juli (24:16.098)
Mm-hmm. No, I love it.
Evan
How would you answer your own question there, like the essential nature of sexuality within Christian theology?
Juli
Yeah, I think for me, it comes down to a few things. First of all, you have to do so many theological gymnastics to convince somebody that what we read, you know, like in just the word of scripture doesn’t call for that sexual ethic, that marriage is between a man and a woman. It’s a life form of covenant. Sex belongs within that union. So I have read books that trying to make the case that that’s not true or it’s no longer true. And the things you have to do theologically to get there undermine much more than just sexuality. It undermines a lot of times the authority of scripture. And I think along with that, as you’re mentioning, the sexual revolution didn’t just happen in a vacuum. It’s really happened in terms of us becoming more postmodern, individualistic, like, our religion is the worship of self. And so, so much of what we see coming out of confusion about sexuality and even why we get married and why we have sex is rooted in a religion of self, of following my desires, following what I think is right, know, pursuing happiness and pleasure in the here and now. And that’s a false god, you know, it’s a god of our culture that I think often doesn’t get called out.
Juli (25:50.774)
We’re just dealing with the symptoms of it. But to essentially say, you know, God wants you to have sex with whoever you feel in love with or whoever you desire is to essentially say the highest good in life is for me to pursue my authentic self and to have as much pleasure and happiness as I can find here. again, I think it’s not just about the behavior. It’s what it unravels in terms of our worldview and taking us away from a truly biblical worldview. But I don’t know what you think about that.
Evan
Wow, that’s profound. It reminds me of a picture from the text we preached last Sunday of right after Moses went up the mountain and got the law and came back down, he discovered the freshly rescued ex-slaves of God, like God’s people, they just saw God do miracles. They just saw the gods of Egypt fall. And so instead of patiently waiting for the presence in law and servant Moses of God, they go ahead and rip off their earrings and make a golden calf, just like the bullheaded demon gods they saw in Egypt. But the part that gets me is that they go ahead and call the calf Yahweh. It’s as if God can be whatever we identify God as. And I’m worshiping Yahweh because I’ve called this calf Yahweh.
Juli (27:16.61)
Right. Yeah, and now we’re Yahweh.
Evan
Exactly, it was my earrings, it my jewelry that made that yawing. And there is a consequence. There is a very severe punishment that rolls through the people as a repercussion for their action. You don’t just get to make Christianity up, you know, you don’t just get to make up who Jesus is or even identify as a Christian and then you’re a Christian, you know. It really is like sexuality included with the doctrine of the Trinity and loving your enemy and bearing the fruit of the Spirit.
Juli
Okay.
Evan (27:46.422)
It’s all included in this whole person, whole community response to Jesus’s question, who do you say I am? I’ve already revealed who I am. Now in your own words, you know, you’re clinical. If you have a couple in a room and you want them to really get on the same page, can you repeat back in your words what she said? What does she want? You tell her, I heard her so I’m watching.
Juli
Yeah
Evan (28:16.502)
And then if that person, if that man can tell in the presence of everyone what she said, then that woman feels loved because you’re actually addressing the woman. This is doctrine. This is sexual ethics. This is fruit of the spirit. You can’t separate any part of us from God’s love. So when Jesus says, who do you say that I am, our mouth and bodies and whole persons and whole communities become a couples therapy session, you know? Very good.
Juli (28:46.04)
Yeah.
Evan
Where now us in covenant with God, I’m saying, this is who you are, and this is what you want. God is love. That’s why Jesus says, if you love me, keep my commands.
Juli
Yeah, Evan, when we talk about this biblical sexual ethic, we, think in our day and age, immediately jump to the LGBT conversation. But what I’m finding through years of ministry is that there’s so many threads to this that we ignore. Like, for example, having a clear theology on marriage and divorce, that goes along with it. You can’t just say, you know, sex is reserved for the covenant of a man or woman and then be sort of nonchalant when we want to enter a covenant and make a new covenant with somebody else. the theology of singleness in having churches that really not just preach but provide for a robust understanding of the family of God and singles within that context. So it’s one thing to say this is what we believe, but to build a church culture out of that is a greater challenge. And I just wonder what that’s been like for you in these eight years.
Evan (30:00.244)
Yeah, we talked offline about a previous podcast conversation I had with someone about the structures of the church as it relates to building a culture of orthodoxy. You the phrase we use in our little fraternity of churches is courageous fidelity to orthodoxy in an age of ethical compromise. And it takes courage and fidelity is what it is. And orthodoxy is the thing, you know, every word in that statement matters. I don’t think I did it for the first couple of years because I wasn’t clear, but I think
Evan
Honestly, a simple answer is front loading your communication with clarity, loving clarity. It will translate as kindness, even with people who vehemently disagree with the historic sexual ethic. If they’re sitting there in your church and they were drawn there or invited there by a family or friends and they hear someone being unapologetic with what they believe, first of all, that’s a plus these days. Someone who can be unapologetic with what they believe in authentic love and then.
Evan (31:00.318)
Add some end notes to your communication that you understand the questions that that raises for various communities. You would love to see those communities hash those questions out in this community. And then circle back to, you know, but we’re happily rooted in orthodoxy. Those goalposts aren’t moving. There’s no reason to kick the can on clarity, I think.
Juli (31:25.932)
Right. You know, one of the challenges is at what level and at what point is there nuance in how you walk this out? You know, like we can take the example of same sex attraction or transgender, you know, gender dysphoria, but we can also take the example of like I mentioned divorce and remarriage. Like we can be very clear on the biblical sexual ethic, but the walking out in real life circumstances, it can get really messy.
Evan
That’s right.
Juli
Particularly when we’re talking about like the discipleship process of what it looks like within community. So what has that been like for you to walk out some of that nuance?
Evan
Okay, that’s good. Thank you for clarifying. So we’ve talked about the basics class, but the basics class is the doorway into community groups. And so our church is very simple. We have Sunday gathering, we have word table, songs and prayer. And then we have our communities where was like 60 groups all over the city that meet in homes by leaders who are trusted, assessed, and trained as best we can. We don’t always do a lot of trainings, but that we keep in relational contact with very closely with those leaders. And that’s when all the nuance bubbles up in those homes. we’ve had a good number of couples who are, you know, non-married, living together, join a community group, realize through the basics class, or maybe before we got clear with the basics class, they joined a community group and it would be just part of the family conversation in that group that, this couple lives together, they’re not married, they have the same address. Interesting. And we’ve seen like multiple times through leaders who are empathetic and unapologetic and orthodoxy, just ask key questions in well-timed moments. And that has led to repentance and new holiness and a commitment to live apart for a time until there can be a wedding.
Evan (33:32.086)
Like those kinds of things have happened. And that’s just one example, but, we haven’t navigated like a messy divorce in our history of our church.
We haven’t been invited as elders. Well, I guess we have. The messes are all different from each other. Every mess is unique, so unique. And just sometimes all we can do, I’m thinking of one time specifically, as an elder team, we just sent emails and texts and phone calls saying, we’re here as close as you will allow us to be, we will be for you.
Evan (34:09.998)
And just to speak hope into those seemingly hopeless relationships a couple of times all we’ve been able to do. Because in those moments where the covenant is just completely broken down, there’s not a lot of invitation for full elder involvement all the time.
Juli (34:21.646)
Yeah.
Evan
Anyways, that’s, I think probably all I can say about that, but.
Juli
Yeah. When we talk about, like, if we go back to sort of some of the LGBT conversations, some of the questions that I often get as I’m working with ministries or church staff is there’s these different levels of involvement at a church. You know, the broadest door is you’re welcome to come to our Sunday fellowship, our worship service. And then there’s sort of a regular attender and there’s somebody who becomes a member, and then somebody who serves and then somebody who leads. And I guess the question is, where do you become more serious about saying, you need to agree with this biblical ethic and your life needs to reflect that? Where is sort of that line where it’s like, hey, you’re welcome to get involved at this level, but once you serve or you become a member, we need agreement here.
Evan
Yeah, well, we’re an at-will membership church, which is the technical way of saying we don’t have formal membership. However, we do have a line and it’s called the shepherding role. If you come on a Sunday, you might see like 700 people or so. We have about 200 to 300 people who operate in some way in a shepherding role, maybe less, maybe 200, 150 to 200.
Evan (35:47.126)
And those are community group leaders, people who teach kids, anyone who we point to and say, hey, go to that person or that person organizes, we have set up Teardown on Sunday morning as someone who organizes teams of volunteers. Those are all shepherding roles. And we require everyone who seeks to lead or serve in a shepherding role to do so in holistic agreement with the essential doctrines and ethics as we articulate them. Not just, yeah, they’ll fall in line, but hold their alternative convictions privately, but like holistic, honest agreement, integrated agreement for shepherding roles. And I say that every basics class. And so people know where the line is. And then I say, but do you have to agree with all of that if you’re just joining a community group? And the answer is no. As long as you are aware that you are signing up for something you do not want.
Juli
Yeah, aren’t we all though at some level.
Evan
Yeah, totally like dying daily, take up your cross kind of stuff. But if you know that you’re signing up to be part of a community group that’s welcoming and hospitable, but every single leader you will come in touch with disagrees with you fundamentally on the essence of Christianity. If you’re like willing to be in this community like that, amazing. And you’re going to hear preaching that just grates against your convictions. Amazing. Like you’re willingly doing that. That’s like gold.
So that’s amazing. So I’ll do a concentric circle, like slide deck that I show and the middle is the gospel, basic gospel, like Jesus saved me. But then when Jesus saves you, you move to the next circle out, which is the essential doctrines and ethics. And it’s kind of like, the analogy I use is if you’re like saved from drowning and the guy on the boat throws a life preserver and you get in the boat and you’re saved, you were drowning, you would not have lived. What is your reaction?
Evan (37:44.014)
Do you just take off the life preserver, find a new set of clothes and leave and not even get the name of your rescuer? There’ll be something wrong with you. You are saved by a lifeguard. You turn to the lifeguard and at least get their name and say thank you to that specific rescuer. So that’s doctrine. The gospel, Jesus saves you, but then faith without works is dead. Like I turn toward my rescuer and say, my gosh, that rescuer, not those rescuers saved me.
Evan (38:12.854)
That’s orthodoxy. This God, not those golden calf headed gods saved me. That circle of essentials, we require agreement, that response to the rescuer. You can say the Sermon on the Mount is hard, but you can’t say it’s wrong. So that’s the difference. And if you’re not sure, if you’re like, you just think of the most alternative lifestyle you can, and they’re in the basics class.
Juli
Yeah.
Evan (38:39.598)
Polyamorous, atheist, like you name the most alternative and they’re here in the room? That’s amazing.
Juli
Yeah, that is amazing. Yeah.
Evan
And you join a community group. As long as you know that you’re gonna be hearing this, the orthodoxy, and you still wanna come, yes. As long as you you won’t lead, there’s a ceiling on your discipleship here.
Juli
Okay, have seen that diagram that you showed concentric circles in. I will. Like, yeah, it was fantastic. So I think about that often since I saw you present that a long time ago. cool. Yeah. So can we talk about biblical sexuality? As you’re saying within kind of that second circle is like this basic sexual ethic. And then if we go outside one, there again is sort of some of this nuance conversation where there can be a lot of disagreement. I’m sure you’re familiar with like side A, side B, side X, side Y.
Evan (39:45.368)
Very much so.
Juli
And maybe we can describe those, but as we describe them, really, side B and X and Y all fit within the basic biblical orthodoxy, but there’s nuance. So maybe if you want to just describe those briefly for people who are like, I don’t know what that is.
Evan
Yeah, well, I mean, I can give a very simple description because I’m not super familiar with all the literature on it. like side A, I think this goes back to an affirming community created these labels first. said side A is the affirming, same sex marriage is blessed by God and fully included in the church. And they have the various ways of getting there, some respectful toward the Bible and less others.
But side A, I would say that’s not recognizably Christian to any Christian who wrote anything down for 2000 years. And they would disagree, but I think history stands. And then side B is, no, we hold to one man, one woman marriage and singleness. Jesus was single, Paul was single, Peter was married, and we can look at those three men and see the full range of human sexuality, like expressed as both marriage and singleness and both flourishing in partnership. One of my favorite chapters.
From like a side B perspective in the Bible is like Acts 17 or Acts 18, where you have Quill and Priscilla and Paul living together for the sake of the kingdom. And as soon as Paul realizes, you know, it’s time for me to do the single like kingdom thing. I’m gonna go preach in the synagogues and I’m gonna give up tent making for a while. You guys hold down the fort, literally. And so Quill and Priscilla as a married couple support Paul to do what Paul thinks is better, which is the singleness thing for him. So I think that’s beautiful.
Evan (41:30.668)
And then you get to Side Y. I think, if I’m not mistaken, Side Y has a qualm with identifying as gay Christian, like why, in a sense, you can change the letter Y to the question why. Like, why would I say gay? know, Paul in 1 Corinthians 6 says, such as some of you were these things, but now you’re washed. So why would I say I’m a gay Christian? wouldn’t say, you know, I’m a porn addicted Christian. I wouldn’t say I’m a, you fill in the blank.
Juli
Mm-hmm.
Evan (41:59.49)
And they’ll often say, you know, fill in the blank with any sin adjective and put it before Christian and see how uncomfortable that is. So that’s a common side Y response to side B. And then side X is, I don’t know how to put it most fairly. I don’t know how to put it fairly, but it’s kind of like, you should expect Jesus to make you straight and…
Juli
It’s sort of that conversion, the conversion therapy view of Brady Gateway.
Evan
Got it, yeah, pray the gay away. I think there’s an argument that could be made that might not be as orthodox as if you’re talking about the fruit of the spirit, love, joy, peace, patience. I don’t think that’s a patient approach. If I had a podcast or whatever, I don’t know that I would platform either A or X. If I had a podcast to hear voices, but B and Y to me seems to be a helpful dialogue when done with mutual understanding and open learning, truly curious posture. Unfortunately, I think the dialogue between a lot of side B and Y, at least in the podcasting world has been very non-curious.
Juli
Yeah, I agree. They don’t even talk to each other. You know, it’s sort of like they talk at each other.
Evan (43:11.566)
There’s a lot of talking at each other. There’s some talking with, but unfortunately the loudest dissenters on what seems to be, from my perspective, the side why side have shut down any advances from invitations to have private or public dialogue with those on the less why side. So hopefully that’s a clear.
Juli
Yeah, no, I appreciate that and I’m gonna maybe throw something in for side X I can see the argument at some level we should be open to God doing a complete transformation I mean that the way that X has been tied characterized has been pretty brutal.
Evan
Okay.
Juli (44:00.886)
Okay, but I do think that there’s element of truth there that you know, we do serve a supernatural God who it’s in the business of changing us from the inside out. That’s where I could see it, bringing something to the conversation.
Evan
Yeah, that shouldn’t be. I mean, I don’t have any unwanted sexual desires in an ongoing way. So it’s easy for me to say what I’m about to say. I think the desire for holistic transformation of unwanted sexual desires is beautiful and gospel centric. Are you kidding me? Because I’ve, you know, led worship a couple of times for the Revoice organization, some of their conferences, which their side B as far as where their theology lands, they don’t label themselves a side B. There’s people who come from every letter, A, B, X, that attend the conference. But I’ve heard self-identified side B gay like theologians say the very same thing you said, like transformation, God is the God of the impossible. Like if we pray for him to heal cancer, if we pray for him to do anything, we should pray for him to do everything. And so I hear that same desire from several within the side B world as well.
Juli
Yeah.
Evan (45:04.462)
Stated in various ways, obviously with nuance and. allowance for a theology of suffering, a theology of, know, 1 Corinthians, 2 Corinthians 12, like I prayed three times for God to remove the thorn from my side, Paul said. And all God said to Paul was, grace is sufficient for you. And apparently that means, no, I’m not removing the thorn. And then what did Paul do? I’ve heard people stop there. What did Paul then do? What was his posture toward the thorn at that point? It wasn’t like,
Juli
Okay.
Evan (45:33.228)
I’m still gonna pray the thorn away.
Juli
Yeah, he received the grace.
Evan
I’m gonna receive the grace and boast in the thorn. Light. I’m like, what does that look like for the person with ongoing unwanted same-sex desire as an Orthodox Christian? Prayed for however many years. And now where’s the boasting in Christ’s sufficient presence?
Juli
Yeah, that’s true.
Evan (46:07.35)
One theologian, a friend of mine who wrote a book called The Gift of Thorns, Adios Oboe, he said it, this was like, what if that thorn as it relates to sexuality, is the gift and crucible of temptation that God is using to deepen me as a person in his kingdom.
Juli
Okay. Wow.
Evan
Whatever we call it, call it gay, call it same-sex desire. I mean, I think it devolves once you start dying on the Hill of Terminology instead of celebrating whole-person faithfulness to Jesus.
Juli
So with that, do you feel like it’s possible for a healthy church community to coexist with people who have side B, side X, and side Y and disagree on some of the nuance of language they might use or just what God might do in terms of life change? And have you seen that in your own congregation?
Evan
Yes to both questions. There’s people in our church who would not call themselves gay, even though they have the same set of same sex desire as one of our leaders who identifies as a celibate gay Christian, who is also a licensed marriage and family therapist. Like we don’t require this conversation to be in terms of gay Christianity or whatever.
Evan (47:28.322)
Like, you know what I mean? Like that’s imposing policing language in a way that I don’t think the scriptures seem interested in. So yeah, to answer your question, I think we have a lot to learn from each other within orthodoxy. And the way I said to our church, we did a night called How Our Church Cares About Sexuality. And we platformed several folks who are either gay and single, same-sex attracted and single, or in what can be termed as a mixed orientation marriage, or where the husband has same-sex desire and the wife, opposite sex desire and they’re committed, faithful, married, have amazing kids and lead in our church. Just various perspectives in that evening. And the way I set up the whole night was planted a flag in orthodoxy unapologetically, and then just let the church know, I think it would be very helpful if we refuse to be a church that died on the hill of terms.
Juli
Okay.
Evan (48:27.49)
But instead died on the hill, died on the hill of whole person holiness and fidelity to Jesus mind, body and soul. Not just you can be a gay Christian as long as you don’t act on your same-sex desire. That’s not enough. It’s also all of us are called to cultivate total holiness of mind. Cultivate inward holiness, not just external behavioral management, but the inward cultivation of a holy mind. And for some, whether they identify as X or Y or they don’t even they don’t even enter the conversation.
Juli
Yeah.
Evan (48:57.08)
For some, it seems like, I’m not even gonna think of myself in terms of this conversation. Praise God, praise God. For others, you know, I have a friend who chooses to identify as a gay Christian because he came from major ex-gay movement experience, like Exodus International. And the halls of Exodus International created this term, same-sex attracted, that he had to use for himself. Otherwise, he’s not being sanctified.
Juli (49:24.3)
Wow. Yeah.
Evan
And so you better call yourself a same sex attracted Christian buddy. Don’t say gay because if you say gay, God’s not working in your life. And if you’re not becoming more and more opposite sex attracted and God’s not working in your life. And so after many, many years of not just praying for the thorn to be removed, but being told by spiritual authority that if the thorns not removed, then you are inherently damnable.
So for him, part of his sanctification process was just to choose, you know what, I’m not gonna say same-sex attractive for me, others can. I’m gonna say gay for me because I actually think Jesus loves gay people and wants them to be holy and wants them to be brought into the family of God through faithfulness to Jesus in either opposite sex marriage or celibate singleness, cultivating holiness of mind. And for him, that word was a confession more than a prideful glorying in some alternate identity.
Juli
Yeah, and I think that’s the key. You know, language comes from somewhere. It’s not just what our culture thinks, but why we choose language. And I think that’s part of this conversation is we’ve got to get beyond just the external argument and really talk to people about their relationship with the Lord and what it looks like for them as you’re staying and surrender mind, body and spirit to Him. I want to thank you for leading the way in that.
Juli (50:51.918)
I mean it’s messy. I’m sure, you know, all of us as we look back 10 years from now and where we are today, I’d be like, we got that wrong. I do this differently now. But it takes courage to be a leader in this field and to be a leader who is clinging to the truth of structure and the person that envies us. So thank you for being one of those courageous leaders.
Evan
Well, that’s humbling to hear from you. I thank you for very much the same thing, just consistently calling people to Jesus in such careful and pastoral and informed and humble ways. So thank you as well. And yeah, you’re welcome, I guess.
