We’ve talked about the fact that many women struggle to ‘flip the switch’ and enjoy married sex, and we’ve talked about what might contribute to that. But we haven’t talked about what husbands can do to help their wives enjoy sex.
Juli shared a conversation from Gary Thomas’ Podcast where she was a panelist alongside Debra Fileta and Belah Rose.
Prefer to listen? Listen to the full episode here.
Juli (00:00.14)
Hey friend, before we jump into today’s episode, I want to make you aware of one of our coworkers who is facing some really tremendous challenges. Dr. Joy Skarka has been with Authentic Intimacy for five years and you might have heard her on this podcast or maybe even read the book that we wrote together called Her Freedom Journey. Well, about six months ago, Joy’s husband Zack was diagnosed with pretty aggressive brain cancer.
Now Joy has been supporting Zack through treatment, hospital stays, chemotherapy, and some complications that he’s walked through from the treatment. And just a few weeks ago, really the unthinkable happened. Joy herself was diagnosed with invasive breast cancer. Now this is a young couple, they’re in their early 30s and they have two little children, Trinity, their daughter is three, and Luke, their son is two.
So now they are both in treatment, they are unable to work, and need help caring for their children. Well, I wanted to make you aware of this need so that you can pray for Joy and her family and consider helping with some of their practical needs. You can find out more about supporting them at the website Give in Kind, and just put their names in, Joy or Zack Skarka. That’s Give in Kind, and we will also include a link in our show notes.
Hey, thanks so much for your prayer and support for Joy and Zack.
Juli (01:33.378)
Well hey friend, welcome to another episode of Java with Juli hosted by me Julii Slattery. This podcast is listener supported and it’s an outreach of Authentic Intimacy which is a ministry helping you make sense of God and sexuality. Well I’m excited to share a special episode with you today specifically addressing how women can learn to enjoy sex. So a few months ago I was invited to speak about this topic on a panel that was hosted by Pastor Gary Thomas, alongside counselor and author Debra Fileta and also Belah Rose of Delight Your Marriage. And today you get to hear us talk about where this issue stems from and what husbands and wives can do to both enjoy the holy pleasures of sex and marriage.
Gary
Hey everybody, we have an all-star panel here today to talk about a crucial issue for Christian couples. How does a woman awaken to sexual fulfillment and pleasure after years of saying no? And what can a husband do to help her experience that? And what can the woman do for herself? We’re going to ask these three women a couple of things. How husbands can help their wives in this regard from two angles. If the wife has waited and then suddenly it’s not so easy after marriage, what can the husband do? What can the wife do? But I also want to address those wives that maybe didn’t wait. There was a period of promiscuity or they weren’t Christians or whatever the reason was. And they don’t understand the difference between a holy marriage and pleasure in a covenant relationship than what they had before they got married. We’re all approaching this from the perspective that the Bible’s message is beautiful and true, that for us to flourish and most honor God, we wait until marriage to become sexually intimate with our spouse. But we recognize, few of us get to marriage without having some past and some experience that has hurt us.
Gary (03:48.342)
And I thought about this topic when I heard Juli Slattery on, I thought a great podcast, I loved it because she wasn’t agreeing with the guy on everything. And I love it when hosts will bring on guests that they’re honest about the disagreements, but in a very honorable, God-honoring way in the disagreement. And she brought up the issue, well, know, many husbands have never heard teaching about how to help their wives awaken to sexual pleasure after they get married. I’d never even heard that brought up. I’d never heard anybody address it. And I really wanted to barrel down and get a greater understanding of how husbands can do that, what wives can do as well because couples are part of it. Just because we recognize it’s not that the message of waiting until marriage isn’t true, it’s that we need another message. What comes after that for the healthiest relationship between husbands and wives? I’m really here raising the questions and for stating the discussion, not so much as a participant, but let me briefly introduce the all-star panel here.
Gary
We have Dr. Juli Slattery. She’s a clinical psychologist, author, speaker. She’s the president and co-founder of Authentic Intimacy. She got a bachelor of arts degree at Wheaton College, an MA in psychology from Biola University, an MS and a doctorate degree in clinical psychology from Florida Institute of Technology, which is why I’m sitting this one out. We’ll let her experience carry us.
She was at Focus on the Family for four years, shocked a lot of people to start a ministry focusing on sexual discipleship. She’s the author of 12 books. She has a podcast, Java with Juli. That’s a fantastic husband who’s a great bike fan. Although Juli, I suspect you guys might be OSU fans. Is that the case?
Juli
Yes. Yeah.
Gary (05:37.868)
I’ll stick with the school named after our Lord’s mother. We have Debra Fileta. A lot of you know her, Faith Forward Licensed Professional Counselor. She’s written seven books. Also the creator of the number one faith-based relationship blog called True Love Dates. Hosts the Debra Fileta Podcast. A founder of the, and I love this as a place to push people toward, the Debra Fileta Counselors Network.
In her spare time, uh she’s married to John, has four kids, and you and I know she’s co-author with me of our book, Married Sex. And then we have Belah Rose, who started out writing a book called Delight Your Husband, became a ministry, Delight Your Marriage, now has a pre-wedding workbook out as well. And she works with couples that help them to reconnect. And what I love about all three of these women, is that they’re pro-husband, they’re pro-lives, they’re pro-marriage, they’re pro-scripture, they’re pro-Jesus. In all they do, it’s about glorifying God and helping the couple together. I enjoy that. Belah, I should say, also has a Delight Your Marriage podcast. Now, one of the reasons I chose all three of these is they have different stories. Juli mentions in her books that she was a virgin when she got married. So she thought, of course, she had no sexual hangups. And then she found out we’re all sexually broken. And for the first few years of her marriage, sexual intimacy was not the strong point of their relationship. Debra also waited, but as she says in our book, that didn’t mean that her wedding night was an extravaganza experience.
Debra
Just because you ate doesn’t make it great.
Gary (07:21.742)
I think she called it a disaster, but I won’t put that in your mouth. Then Belah waited for her first marriage and then her husband had some real issues with porn and expectations. Didn’t really appreciate her innocence, led to some lot of unhealthy things.
Belah
Did some things wrong too. I know.
Gary
And you’re always gracious toward that Belah. But then promiscuity after that, after the marriage blew up and an entirely different experience in her second marriage, which has made her so passionate about helping couples get through this now. So Juli, let me let you get us started. When did you first think of raising that issue? How can husbands help their wives awaken to sexual pleasure? What do you mean by that and what would be some of your suggestions?
Juli
Boy, I don’t even remember when I first thought of that. It was probably a decade ago. I remember interviewing the late Tim Evans. I don’t know if any of you were familiar with him, but he was talking about how he loved coaching young men on their wife’s sexuality.
Juli (08:38.378)
And again, this is probably like eight or 10 years ago. And he was describing to me on the podcast how he like would go out to lunch with these guys who were just married and struggling with their sex lives and how sometimes he would like literally draw on a napkin, female anatomy and explain to them and how these guys were just like fascinated. So I think that was probably early on when I’m like, Hey, there’s something here that I think a lot of couples are missing.
And then Gary, think just over and over and over again, hearing women say this phrase, I don’t know how to flip the switch. And I don’t know how to go from one day sex is wrong and bad and the next day it’s supposed to be wonderful and pleasurable. And I’ve heard women say this, even 20 years into marriage that I still don’t know how to flip this switch. I’ve never known how to do it. And so I think just you know, hearing advice from experts as well as the pain, particularly coming from a woman’s standpoint of not knowing how to enjoy sex, not understanding their own bodies and men feeling like this is territory that they’re not even really allowed to ask about. Like they’re just sort of like, I don’t know, you figure that out. And so just hearing that narrative over and over and over again.
And then as you mentioned, I think the current narrative, even in the churches, I think people are saying it’s right to have what they might call running start. Like we want our marriage to be great, so we’re going to have sex early on so that we don’t have all these complications early in our marriage. so also in the need of, as you mentioned, not just upholding the biblical truth about sex being for marriage, but also in giving people discipleship on what it looks like then to enter into marriage with the right perspective.
Gary (10:37.322)
Debra, you in all your writings and speaking, you stress one of the things I love about what you do, personal agency, that you’ve got to take ownership for what you do. And we’re going to get into that. But for the purposes of this, as one who’s experienced a less than ideal marriage night, what would you say for the husbands to help the wives? Agreeing that this is an issue, what do husbands need to know going in? I know you said, in our book that you were shocked at some of the, there’s not a nice word, ignorance that couples had even about the female anatomy. You’ve worked with personally.
Debra
Yeah, it’s interesting because we do have a tendency to over-spiritualize everything. And I think one of the ways that we see that is with how sexuality plays out for a lot of Christians, especially those who have never had experience or maybe one of them does and the other doesn’t. But even ironically, even the people that I work with who have a history of sexual activity before marriage, that doesn’t mean they necessarily know how to do it well. Just because you have a history or a pattern, that pattern could be coming from pornography. That pattern could be coming from things you learned in childhood. So it’s really going in with the desire to rewrite the story and to do it well and to write it together. And I think that’s the key is how can we begin to address some of these issues before marriage? Have these conversations before marriage. Because you want to have a framework for even just some of the basics, the basic anatomy, the basic history, and family of origin, and all of these things.
Debra (12:46.432)
So I would say if you’re a man and you’re wondering how can I help my wife in this area, I think the best thing you can do is start conversations and really listen to the answers.
Gary
Can you give a couple of conversation starters?
Debra
Yeah, well even just with a pre-married couple saying here are a few questions I want you guys to discuss. I would say, “What is something that you are anticipating looking forward to with our sex life?” “What is something you’re apprehensive or worried about when it comes to our sex life?” “What’s something that you wish you knew more about regarding sex and sexuality?” Just some really basic questions can be a really good starting point.
Debra (13:27.15)
“What are some of the things you learned about sex growing up?” “What do you want to let go of and what beliefs do you want to bring in to marriage?” There’s so many different questions, but just starting with the groundwork of we’re comfortable talking about this or we’re going to become comfortable talking about it because it’s something that we want to be a part of the framework of our relationship. So just because you’re not comfortable going in doesn’t mean that you can’t develop a culture where talking about this stuff is part of everyday life.
Gary
Those are some great questions. If people want to rewind and just write them down, those would be a couple of great dates. Belah, you had two different experiences with one husband who made it difficult for you. And I know you’re not only blaming him, but you talk so lovingly about your second husband, about how he brought you in to a new experience. So with that background, what would you say to husbands? What is not helpful? What is helpful?
Belah
Yeah, absolutely. Well, I have the honor and privilege of coaching men now, and I’ve done it for many years. And I’m just grateful that I get to sadly, you know, see men that are making the same mistakes that my first husband did and really invite them to walk a life who was it, Juli, you said, discipling people into how Jesus would want us to live in our marriages. And the beautiful thing is women are attracted to the fruits of the Spirit. Believe it or not, they really are. And so
So my first husband, intimacy was just really tough and I couldn’t figure it out. And I felt pressured and that I was bad, that I was a virgin and I didn’t understand and I was innocent. And why didn’t I know this stuff already? And so I was really disappointed at God. And when I ended the marriage, I have to plead Jesus’ blood over that divorce because it wasn’t appropriate in terms of Biblical standards.
Belah (15:25.356)
But then I was disappointed at Jesus and I just went away from him. And I said, sex is not valuable. It’s not special. It’s not spiritual. It’s about power. And I’m gonna take it into my own hands and I’m gonna do whatever I want to. And yeah, then I found out, no, it does hurt your heart after a while. It really does. And then I started dating my now husband, Darrow. And I found out that there is a man out there who can treat me not like a piece of meat and he can actually love me. And I remember our first date saying to him, “This is the safest I have ever felt. I don’t want this night to end”. And I will tell you, husband, listening, making your wife feel safe, it is a core need for her as a woman. And it makes sense because a man is always the protector. It makes sense. It’s always the women and children. The men get out and fight the hard fight and they come home and protect the women and children. And so that means you’re protecting her heart. Jesus was never harsh with women ever. He always was kind and tender and gentle to the women. He threw over the tables and talked to the Pharisees. They were men. They could take it! And we’re in a society right now where the women, know, are unfortunately… the feminism has just gone absolutely anti-biblical, which is tragic. But men, if you stand up and you realize you are the protector and you really can make your wife feel safe. See, the problem is women often are controlling in their marriage and that’s what I was doing even to Darrow.
You know, he was great and we were having lots of sex and all this stuff, but I was controlling him. And so he wasn’t showing up as this confident man that I thought I married. And so I was less sexually attracted to him because he was blah. But I was controlling him out of my own fear. I was trying to get my needs met in those ways. So anyway, in terms of just answering your question, I would say that a husband, if his priority can be safety for his wife, and part of that, is becoming the man in strength that he was called and created to be in the first place.
Gary (17:29.176)
Juli, Belah mentioned some wives makes some of the same mistakes. What mistakes have you seen with husbands that you’ve worked with or have come in contact with that have just made things more difficult for their wives? And what things have you seen and done that said, that’s what I would disciple somebody to do, that’s the way to look at it?
Juli
Sure. There are so many men who unfortunately are coming into marriage with a history of pornography. And some of them are very good men who have fought that and struggled with it and even thought, hey, marriage is going to help me overcome lust and my battle with pornography. And we talk about the impact of pornography. I think sometimes what gets missed is that pornography actually disciples of intersexuality. I think one author called it “satanic discipleship” in our sexuality. But somebody who has been exposed to pornography over and over again, they have learned even at a neurological level that sex is about immediately getting my needs met. I should have sex the way I need it and that arouses me. It teaches you to objectify people, including your wife, reducing her to her body parts or how she can make you feel. And so there are a lot of Christian men coming into marriage who their heart is, I want to have a good sex life. I want to honor my wife, but they don’t realize how much when they start getting involved sexually with their wife, they’re just reacting the way they’ve been trained to react with pornography. And so they don’t know. It’s just if it’s been repetitive and it’s been termed, they just operating on premises that are wrong.
Juli (19:14.476)
Yeah. So essentially now she becomes the acceptable outlet for the thing I’ve always struggled with. And so there can be spoken or unspoken demands about things that he wants her to get involved with. Maybe she’s very uncomfortable with some of the acts that he finds exciting and he pressures her and then she begins to feel objectified. He might even say things like, you know, “I need sex”. I need you to do this for me. And he might even refer to first Corinthians chapter seven, like, “This is your duty”. “This is why I got married”. And so she begins thinking about sex in terms of this is something I have to do even if I feel objectified, even if I feel compromised. And so she starts avoiding. you know, that’s probably the most common pattern that I see. And again, I’m talking about good men.
I mean, there are certainly men who do not have a heart to honor and love their wives, but this is men who really want to have a great sex life and want to be honoring to the Lord. But again, they just don’t realize the extent to which they’ve been trained by the culture to think about their wives and sexuality from a perspective of pornography.
Gary
What I hear being said already is one of the worst ways to try to awaken a wife is to make it about you referring to the husband. It’s not getting your needs met. You’re trying to focus on what will bring her pleasure to the forefront. What will make her feel safe, Belah? What will make her feel secure? Sometimes if that’s in your history, completely expunging all of that wrong patterning.
Now, Debra, you wrote an entire chapter in our book, “What Gets Her Going”, about helping men understand this is what helps a wife awaken to her best. How would you tailor that toward a new husband wanting to say, well, I can’t expect my wife just to turn the on switch. What would you say to him to help her start out in a healthy way?
Debra (21:28.546)
You know, going back to what Belah said earlier, I don’t think we can underestimate the power of emotional and spiritual connection for the paving the way for the avenue of sexual connection. I talk in married sex about what we do above the sheets is what really paves the way for what happens under the sheets.
I don’t think people realize how important that really is to have that connection and that safety, that emotional safety, because when there is that trust, when there is that bond, when there is that intimacy, we can build on that foundation. And so you really have to start by arousing her heart. That’s the first step in arousing anything. You got to start by arousing her heart because that is the gate to anything that she’s gonna feel in her body or a lack thereof. So I think that’s really important to understand this is how my wife works. I need to arouse her heart. What does that look like in day-to-day life? What does that look like in how I’m honoring her and what I’m looking at and what I’m thinking about in my intentionality towards her? Because you really do have to start there. And obviously there’s things then to arouse her body. And we go into great detail about what that looks like and feels like and, you know, practical strategies. But if you take all of those practical strategies and you try to apply them first, you’re not going to get very far.
Gary
Right. So deal with the heart issues first, deal with the spiritual issues first, have conversations beforehand. You mentioned that, Debra. Is there something you would add, to this from?
Belah (23:25.632)
Yeah, sure. I love so much of what Debra just said, arousing the heart. That is the gateway. You’re totally right. That is what causes her to come towards him because he’s safe. And I also love Gary. I know you’re not being interviewed, but so many of your books, that’s what if marriage is to make you holy rather than happy? I mean, that’s what the core is. If you are a trustworthy man, she can trust you. You are safe with her heart. But yeah, I would love to just share because a lot of times the men I work with are, are looking for that there’s a gap. Like once he can somehow, some way, magically the stars align and the moon is in the right place and her minstrels like, who knows? But once intimacy happens, she seems to have a great time. But it’s the between, how do we make this gap shorter? So that it’s not once a month, it turns into maybe even once a week, maybe a couple of times a week, maybe there’s passion, maybe there’s enjoyment. How do we get that in the intimacy? So I guess I’ll just speak to that, assuming I’m talking to a man in that scenario. Because sex is so vulnerable and sex is so messy and sex is embarrassing. I mean, it’s literally all of those things. You’re, you’re unclothed, you’re vulnerable. It’s messy. I mean, it’s messy. It might even have smells. In fact, it does! It’s embarrassing. I mean, come on. Have you ever gotten a cramp in the midst? it’s terrible.
But anyway, because it’s all of those things, what I really invite you to focus on is playfulness outside of the bedroom. So then playfulness happens inside of the bedroom. So suddenly the cramp is not an embarrassing, “I can’t believe that just happened. My gosh, she doesn’t like me anymore. She probably thinks I’m old and crudgy”. Instead you’re saying, “My gosh, this is so funny because you’re so used to having all these inside jokes and so much playfulness”. And I remembered, Gary, you told me this in an interview you and I did on my podcast. You said something like, after some cool experience with your wife, you were, you just had a great time at the next event that you both were at together, almost like making lovey-dovey eyes. And haven’t we all experienced that with our spouse? Like, because it’s just this playfulness that automatically the connection in intimacy translates into playfulness outside of it. And the playfulness outside of it translates into playfulness inside of it.
Gary (25:39.598)
So this is an overall relational thing. Rather than giving quote-unquote sexual tips physically, all three of you are saying, now address her heart emotionally, spiritually, relationally. I love Debra’s comments. Start the conversation early. That starts to build it up. Playfulness outside of the bedroom leads to it before. Juli, you’ve written a lot and said a lot. And I want to mention your two books in particular for people.
Rethinking Sexuality was the first one and then the follow-up, well, not the first book, but in what we’re talking about. And then God, Sex, and Your Marriage, both are essential readings. But how you, because you were a virgin when you got married, you thought, I’ve done everything right, everything should be easy. So let’s shift a little bit toward what women can do. When you had to realize I’m more sexually broken than I thought. And just because I waited doesn’t mean I know how to start. So what would you say to the wife about that? Okay, she’s waited. Let’s say she’s waited. What’s your counsel to her to become familiar with enjoying what God has created her for?
Juli
Yeah, boy, number of things. Gary, first of all, I mentioned earlier that phrase of how do I flip a switch? And what I’ve really learned is to think more about how do I turn a dial? Because dials turn slowly and there might not even be ever an end to how far you can turn it. And having been married now for over years, it really is more like that.
You know, how God has created us as women, we’re mysteries. And we’re mysteries to our husband, and to some extent, we’re mysteries to ourselves. I don’t always know how I’m going to feel. I don’t know how my body’s going to respond to being in different phases of my menstrual cycle or during pregnancy or after or menopause. It’s always changing. And so I think encouraging a wife and giving her permission to say, this is going to be a learning journey and it’s going to be discovery for you.
Juli (27:49.678)
It’s going to be discovery for your husband, inviting him into that, having the freedom to say, I’m learning. I’m learning about my own body. And I think there are some amazing resources out there, books and podcasts and coaches that help women discover their bodies, overcome issues with pelvic floor therapy or sex therapy. Just know there’s help available that I don’t know that were available maybe 20 or 30 years ago. I think the other thing that’s really critical and we’ve all kind of hit on this to some extent is that sex is about so much more than the body. And this is particularly true for women. I think we’re more connected with the integration. I think it’s true for men too, but they tend to compartmentalize more. But if you believe lies about your sexuality, you believe lies about your body, you believe lies about the goodness of sex, and you may not be aware that you’re believing those. I didn’t know I was believing those, but they will just undermine and compromise this journey.
For example, you know, I kind of always believe this lie that sex was probably more a gift from my husband than it was for me. And it was just kind of something that I learned growing up in the church that this is something that women primarily do for your husband and if you happen to enjoy it, then that’s great, but that’s not necessary. And so carrying that line to my marriage, was like, I didn’t fight for the fact that this should be enjoyable for me. Like I just sort of settled. So that was like one lie, a lot of body image issues I had going into marriage, I think a lot of women do of, know, my body isn’t sexy. I don’t look like this. You know, I don’t feel sexy. You know, really identifying those, unearthing those, working them through, having honest conversations with your husband about your body insecurity and him just being a champion of your body, how much he loves your body, how he finds you sexy, like constant reminders. I think women need that so that they can be free. And I’ve shared in books and speaking that like Linda Dillow was a great mentor for me for that.
Juli (30:11.712)
And she’s like 25 years older than I am. And so, she’s been this older woman. I remember her saying, “It doesn’t matter what you have, matters what you do with what you have”. But just those words of wisdom of older moms in the face speaking to younger women saying, don’t believe the cultural lies that it’s all about how big your breasts are or how skinny your waist is or all these things that culture tells us means sexy, but being free to have sexy as a mindset. So I think there are number of things to do and it is really a discipleship journey. One thing you hear, it’s consistently pursuing God’s truth and pursuing freedom.
Gary
Let me go back to the start of your answer on that, Juli, because you talk about talking to your husband about this or learning this or understanding the dial. How many women really feel comfortable talking with their husbands like that? That I need you.
Juli
I think it’s unusual. You guys can get there.
Gary
But do you have those conversations, especially early on?
Juli (31:21.972)
No, I mean, I think it’s changing. some of the keys that we’ve already hit on like safety is so key, because those conversations are vulnerable. And, know, one wrong phrase can stick with you for decades of, you know, something that’s discouraging sexually. And so I think couples are tentative, they’re afraid to say the wrong thing, they don’t know how honest they can be. And, and that’s why like Debra said having safe conversations Early really sets the environment and the tone for how to have those conversations. Like I encourage couples to read good Christian books on sex out loud to each other because it gives you the vocabulary, the tone, the framework, not just to have the conversation, but how do we have them in a way that’s appropriate and isn’t going to hurt each other.
Juli (32:19.48)
Hey friend, if you’ve listened to this podcast for any length of time, you know that it is listener supported, which means we really rely on your donations as we create resources, this podcast, our blog posts, events, webinars, and the courses that we run. I just wanna take a moment to say thank you for your continued support of this ministry. Your generosity really does make all of this possible. And if you are not currently supporting us and you wanna make a donation, you can either donate one time or set up a reoccurring donation and you can do that through the link in the show notes. And thanks again for making everything that we do possible because of your support. Now back to our Java with Juli conversation.
Gary (33:11.586)
Debra, you wrote a booklet on how to talk about sex. So how would you encourage wives that are hearing what Juli said, I wish I could have that conversation with my husband. I wish he could get to know not just my body, but the fears, the insecurities I have. What are some tips you would give to women to start that conversation?
Debra
You know, those of us who wish that our husbands could kind of know what we need and start those important conversations are probably going to be waiting for a long time because we’re wired differently. We have different personalities. I mean, think about any two people coming into marriage. There’s a really good chance they’re very different in something, in their personality, their communication styles, their family of origin.
Are they a thinker or a feeler? Introvert, extrovert. So much of this has to be us communicating what we need, what we desire, what we are struggling with. And I really think taking ownership of communication means that I commit to sharing what I’m thinking and feeling and sharing it in a kind, respectful way so that it has a higher likelihood of being received. If we’re talking about communication struggles, obviously that’s a whole different level and something that I would encourage a couple to go to counseling and really talk through because we can’t talk about the weekend plans without it turning into a fight. There’s no way you’re to be able to talk about your sex life without it turning into a fight. So I think communication is the lifeline of a relationship and going.
Debra
Back to what Juli said, I think as a woman, the most important thing you can do is to get to know your beliefs about sex and really start unpacking those. And if you can unpack them with your husband, I think that’s incredible. mean, even the belief that sex was wrong and now it’s right is a wrong belief. Sex was always right. It was just, I was waiting for the right context. Sex was always good. It’s just a matter of when.
Debra (35:29.516)
So get to know your beliefs, get to know your body. I can’t explain to you how many women I speak to that don’t actually know much about the inner workings of their body. And what do you desire? What works for you and what doesn’t? I’m not really sure. So take the time to get to know your body, and then take the time to get to know your boundaries. Because boundaries aren’t just what I’m going to say no to. Boundaries are also what I’m going to say yes to: what works in my relationship, what I want and need in the bedroom. And when you know those three things, you can then start to communicate about them. I think part of the problem is we don’t take enough time and do enough work to even know what we think and believe about those three categories, my beliefs, my body, my boundaries, so there is nothing to communicate about.
And then we’re waiting for our spouse to kind of automatically know or to pave the way for conversation when they have a completely different mentality about it. And so get to know yourself in those three areas so that you can begin to communicate what you need and take ownership of those parts of your sex life.
Gary
For those watching, one of the things that Debra surprised me about when we writing the book, we had the chapter, what gets him going, what gets her going. I wrote the what gets him going. She wrote the what gets her going. And then she said, we need a third chapter on what gets you going. And I always would have felt selfish for me to express to my wife what gets me going. And when I’m honest, when I’m 20 and 30, it doesn’t take much to get me going. Like a woman’s body changes, a man’s body changes. And again, Debra, throughout her career, what I love about her counseling, she stresses, you need to take ownership. A husband doesn’t understand a woman’s body, even if he’s been with 10 other women. His wife’s body, unique and completely different. And the wife doesn’t understand the husband’s body.
Gary (37:45.334)
And so what I’m hearing these three women say is it really, it’s largely about communication and talk sharing our fears, sharing our concerns, and this might be harder, sharing our wants in a way that doesn’t result in a fight, but saying this really helps. Can you express that, Belah, with two very different experiences, with two different types of relationships with your first husband and second husband?
Belah
Yeah, no, absolutely. I think the thing about my first marriage was, as Debra said, communication is vital. That was not a possibility, whether it around sex or anything else. And we did have fights around sex. So there was plenty of strife going on. And so what I’ve learned at this point in my marriage and my work is that fighting is unbiblical. There are so many scriptures that have the word quarrel right next to murder.
I mean, there’s just so much. To Juli’s point, sometimes this particular scenario is so difficult and a word that’s said now can last for decades. It’s so true. So many times somebody says, gosh, what was said on my honeymoon still haunts me. Just like, what? That was 30 years ago. And it’s true. So again, to Debra’s point, what if you can’t talk about the tiny things, how in the world are you gonna get talking about sex?
Now, I think there’s probably at least one person, if not lots of people listening, they might be wanting to shout at the screen saying, yeah, I want to talk. I want to talk to my spouse. They are not willing to listen. And I guess the way I would encourage, or I want to go to counseling, they’re not willing to go to counseling. The one thing I would encourage is in terms of your next step, because everybody’s, you know, if you’re a two out of 10, you’re not going to have the same strategy of growing your marriage if you had an eight out of 10.
It’s gonna be a different strategy, because you’re farther away. So the strategy for people who are lower on the marital health spectrum is you want to focus in on the mundane conversations, to Debra’s point. You want to focus in on zero fights, no elevating your voice, taking pauses when you need to calm down, focusing on listening. They’re obviously trying to communicate something, and you might not be understanding the root cause of what they’re communicating.
Belah (39:56.686)
So if you can slowly make progress with making things safer with the mundane, slowly your wife will understand, maybe I can be vulnerable with some of my deeper heart hurts and the deeper wounds and the deeper things that matter. And same with the wife. A lot of times husbands are wounded in certain ways. And again, it’s slowly getting to a place where communication could be eventually, eventually, eventually, if you’re patient and do it God’s way, you could get to a place where they want to share and they do want to connect and they want to understand. And yes, we need to have conversations about sex, but it might just be a journey that you have to be patient to get there.
Gary
Juli, I think one of the things that you have been a pioneer in and just from your experience could share it like a few others saying, look, I waited for marriage, so I thought I was completely healthy and I didn’t have any problems. And your insistence in your seminars and your books that we are all sexually broken. reason I think that’s helpful for me as a pastor is that when people have been promiscuous, they kind of know that they have the guilt, they have the shame.
And what you’re saying is we’re all in a different place. It’s like if you broke your leg mountain climbing or playing football or falling off a rock, your legs still broken. And we all go into marriage with some brokenness. And I remember Linda Dillow writing years ago with pain about the women she had worked with admitted they gave far more of themselves in an uninhibited fashion to boyfriends whose names they can’t even remember, than they’ve ever been able to give to their husbands because they felt like, well, that was wrong, that was carnal, that was sinful. And so now I’m just gonna play the nice, pious wife. And the fact that we all come in brokenness means that those wives who feel the shame and guilt because of what they’ve done sexually beforehand don’t need to punish themselves or their husbands for the rest of their lives.
Gary (42:00.374)
The grace of God wants them to enjoy a fulfilling, pleasurable marriage. We don’t pay for our sins by our suffering. Our sins are paid for by what Christ suffered on our behalf. So what would you say if we turn the corner here toward the women who feel like they were broken because of their promiscuity and now they don’t know how to have healthy sexual pleasure without the shame and the guilt? You’ve written so much and so well on it. What are some things that you would say? First to the husbands and then to the wives because the husbands can exacerbate that and make them feel like they’re used goods.
Juli
Yeah, Gary, I’m glad you asked that and that impacts a lot of people. I think some of this is sort of a fallout from purity culture thinking where sexual purity was, it’s like a check a box thing. You’re either pure or you’re impure. And so there’s one standard. If I save sex from marriage, then I’m pure. If I didn’t, then I’m impure. And there’s so many problems with that.
You know, first of all, there’s a lot of ways for us to be impure sexually. And Jesus was clear, like, if you lust in your heart after somebody, it’s the same as having sex with them. And so, you know, the scripture says that our righteousness is as filthy rags. So in reality, none of us can say, I’m sexually pure. I did this right. We just have different degrees of how we’ve acted out on our lust, our desires, the world’s definition of sex. And so we all are in need of Christ’s forgiveness, as you said, and our purity comes through receiving that. And so I think a more helpful way to think of this is as a follower of Christ who has been purified through his blood, how do I walk with integrity?
Juli (44:06.05)
How do I pursue the freedom that God offers me and the holiness that he calls me to. And we still are called to pursue that even within marriage. Again, this is purity culture thinking that now that I’m married, as long as I keep sex within marriage, all is good. And the call of a Christian is to capture every thought, to follow Christ with everything, to glorify God with our thoughts and our body, to bring him glory. And so the bigger question is, how do I glorify God with my sexuality?
How do I glorify God with my sexual relationship with my husband, with my marriage in general? And so bitterness and withholding and a critical spirit, unforgiveness for things that he has done in his past or his sexual past, carrying the guilt and shame from my own past, those are all ways that we actually lack integrity and we’re not following Christ.
And so that’s why I say too, we’re all sexually broken because I think the standard of wholeness has been so narrow and limited that our concept of what it means to be broken is also way too limited. So a couple who has always kept sex within marriage, maybe never struggled with pornography, but they’re not free to enjoy the fullness of what God has given them. That’s sexual brokenness. so God is calling us to a far greater fulfillment of his wholeness than I think most of us realize, which is exciting that you can be married for 60 years and still be saying, God, you what is the fullness of sexual love that you have for us in this season? So that’s kind of the bigger vision of I think how the gospel and discipleship inform what it is to pursue sexual wholeness within marriage.
Gary
And understand it’s God’s desire for the couple. Not being punished for the rest of their life because of a season of their life.
Juli (46:08.066)
Yes. Yeah. And I think I learned this from you. I don’t know if it was your book on pleasure or something that you had written, Gary, but you talked about we’re not honoring God. Like who’s happy when a married couple doesn’t enjoy sex? It’s not God. know, like Satan is the one who’s rejoicing then. And I think you also said, and I think this is profound, you know, the greatest statement of our freedom in Christ is our ability to enjoy holy pleasures because we know we’re free. And so it really does honor God and speak to the power of the gospel when we can become free of those lies and those chains of shame.
Gary
If you haven’t been listening to Debra’s podcast, one of the reasons you want to is she’ll actually work with actual couples. And so you can kind of see therapy playing out and it’s really fun. So Debra, let me put you in a hypothetical situation where you have a woman, I dealt with this in premarital counseling. So I don’t want to give my opinion. I want to hear from you. The woman has been sexually active. The husband to be hadn’t.
He was feeling intimidated, but also, well, what does this mean for us? What would be some do’s or don’ts that you would say to him? I’d say do’s and don’ts, saying, this will be helpful as you start your sexual relationship with your wife. This won’t be helpful. What are some things you would say to that couple?
Debra
Yeah. Well, I think I would start by digging into that insecurity and why something outside of himself is his measuring stick, in this case, his wife’s sexual history.
Gary (47:56.652)
I’ll just say it, because it’d be true for most guys, it was true for him, performance. What if I don’t measure up?
Debra
Yeah. And what I mean by taking it a little bit further is that I wouldn’t necessarily assume that it would be the case for most guys. I think if there is a history of inadequacy in a struggle with that, there’s probably a reason. And it’s probably been a history that’s been there even long before they met one another. And so that’s my work as a counselor is to begin to get to the roots of his own inadequacy because inadequacy is going to pop up. If it’s there, it’s not just going to pop up about sex. It’s going to pop up about a lot of other things, unless we can really get to the root and begin to heal from there. And that’s all of us, our individual journeys with God. When we start to feel these things that come up in marriage, most of the time marriage hasn’t caused our wounds. It reveals our wounds. And it exacerbates our wounds.
So in this case, it’s like, well, let’s talk through that. And when you do feel these insecurities and you’ve dealt with the things from your past, how can you then address these things with your wife? What do you need from her? How can you have conversations with her about what you’re feeling and experiencing? Because that is a whole new level of intimacy in a relationship to be able to say, I’m feeling inadequate right now. And I could really use some validation from you as my wife. To me, that alone is attractive for a man to be vulnerable and share what’s going on inside of him rather than what can happen is you overcompensate for that inadequacy by trying to be a big shot, you know, by acting more confident than you actually are or more controlling or whatever, rather than just being vulnerable and saying, hey, here’s where I’m struggling and I could really use your support.
Debra (49:57.294)
And so teaching him what it looks like to ask for help and support, teaching him what it looks like to allow God into those places where he’s struggling. And so kind of helping them work together in that way would be my strategy for a couple like that.
Gary
So like always, what I’m hearing all three of you saying is really the bedroom is sort of the fruit of a healthy relationship. Yeah. You improve the bedroom by improving everything else and then it unfolds in the bedroom. Do you agree with that, Belah?
Belah
You know, I do for sure. And I would also, if you don’t mind, share some just practical tips that maybe a husband would benefit from. So what I would recommend is feminine sexual practices, which are basically with no strings attached outside of the bedroom doing something somewhat intimate. it might be, and you know, different tiers. So tier one might be just gently brushing, caressing, not massaging her shoulders and her abdomen.
So that’s not super sexual. Tier two might be actually over top of her clothes, breasts and buttocks and all of that wonderful, those wonderful assets that he just loves, but say it ahead of time that this isn’t gonna lead anywhere. I would just love to show you the things that I really enjoy the most. And then third tier would just be actually having unclothed areas that he just, again, no strings attached. This is not going anywhere. This is just for her and him experiencing her and her knowing how much he craves and desires and loves that, again, without any movement towards sex. Because she is the receiver of sexuality, if she’s not safe, if intimacy is not a safe place that she goes towards, there is a level of threat that sex is. She has to defend against it because she is receiving sex. Sex happens inside of her, so she’s kind of defending against. So things like feminine sexual practices are just really healing in a marriage.
Belah (52:00.994)
And again, strategically, you have to be higher up on the marital health spectrum for it to work. But keep that in mind, depending on where you are. The other thing about for men approaching their wives in intimacy, so in the actual act, is I would say for men, his member, he wants focus right on there, right away. Get that focused. And for a wife, she’s like, go start with the fingertips. Start with the arms. Get to the neck. Like, she doesn’t want focus straight on the most erogenous zones. So the idea is least erogenous to the most erogenous and slowly. And that is a real important part for a husband to think about is slowly get there. And then there’s a tease aspect to it as well. Teasing around her most intimate, the paradise between her legs as Song of Solomon says, teasing around there versus going straight to it because that can even cause her to feel like she has to push away again. That’s just too much all of a sudden. The other thing for women, what I used to do was to Juli’s point, I used to think I was broken. I couldn’t have an orgasm as my whole first marriage. Couldn’t have an orgasm. In fact, the only time I was able to have an orgasm for the first time was with my now husband, Darrow, with a person. was because there was not the safety piece. I wasn’t able to really surrender and be myself fully.
But what I was doing wrong was I was asking the wrong questions of God. I said, why am I broken? Why don’t I want sex? Why can’t I figure this out? And what I would invite a wife to do is to shift the question, whether you’re newly married or whether you’re 30 years down the road and you’re like, I just don’t have the desire he does. never have, something’s wrong with me. I would say, ask the question, how can I get myself to want to have sex? Not, am I interested in sex right now?
If he approaches, do I want sex? No. But what if that question was, how can I get myself to want to have sex? Well, maybe I could take a hot shower and do a little dance in the bathroom, put on some music, put on some candles, do something that invigorates me and gets me a little excited and just puts the spark in me. Maybe I could after I take a nap or what have you. And so I just encourage a wife, you can enjoy sex.
Belah (54:20.595)
To Juli’s point, again, we are made this way. And so if you ask the right questions of yourself, invite you to, you’ll get better answers.
Gary
Juli, as I’m listening to all three of you, I think part of what I’m hearing, the subtext is you’re trying to awaken your wife or you’re trying to awaken your husband. Understand the way you want to be awakened is probably different. Instead of doing what you’d like to have done to you. I think especially I want to stress that to the men. It’s very likely, and Belah just said it, very different than what she would like you to do to her.
So as we start to wrap this up, Juli, any other final thoughts on awakening beyond that to help couples just enjoy the best relationship they can have on all levels as you think, yeah, wish women would know and men?
Juli
Sure. Yeah, I would say first a few things. First of all, we have been talking in generalities and I want to mention that probably like 20 to 30 % of women have a different way that they’re aroused and they would actually probably describe it more in terms of stereotypically masculine. They think about sex often, they don’t need as much foreplay.
They’re the ones who are pursuing sex instead of their husband pursuing them. So if that’s your situation, I don’t want you to feel like you’re broken or there’s something wrong with you that actually is really pretty normal. And the second thing I would say is all the things that we’ve talked about, I think have to come with a caveat.
Juli (56:03.79)
The research would show that about 50 % of women have some sexual violence in their past and about 25 to 30 % of those women have actually experienced rape or childhood sexual abuse. so Gary, you made the comment, it sounds like if you have a good marriage, you’ll have a good sex life. And that’s generally true, but when you have experienced sexual violence, and this is true of men too, probably about 20 to 25 % of men have sexual abuse in their past. You can have a great marriage and have a trusting marriage, but when you start to be sexual, your body responds. As we’ve now learned, the body keeps the score. And so if you or your spouse have sexual trauma in your past, it’s really important to remember that it’s not just about pushing through that, it’s about getting the kind of help that you need to process those memories. So I think that’s really key.
And then I guess the final thing I would say, and this is something that has been, I think, really a reframe for me in doing all this work on sexuality and marriage is that sex really is about the journey of intimacy. And I’ve actually found with couples that sometimes, think one of you mentioned this, sex can actually be more intimate when you have to work through the problems than it is when everything’s working great. Like when you have to confess that you have a porn struggle or when you’re grieving through infertility or when you’re know, disclosing insecurities or shame. Like couples that can get to that level of vulnerability, even if their sex life feels like it’s terrible in that season, they’re actually building a richer intimacy than having sex would build. And so my encouragement would be like, God never waste the pain. He never waste these seasons. And so if this feels discouraging to you, if your spouse is working through an addiction or you’re working through betrayal, whatever it might be, like really ask the Lord, what does it look like to build intimacy right now, even if our sex life feels very broken?
Gary (58:10.904)
Thank you, Juli. That’s such a real life, true discussion that you’ve just had. It’s easy with books and even in sermons to simplify things, but I think what you’ve done is just say this really can be a long journey. There are a lot of different aspects and every couple is different. That was really helpful. And Debra, when she said that, get help, I think for me that means licensed counseling, and which you have a network that people can use. What would be some of your final words besides getting involved with your network? What are some of the things you would say?
Debra
Yeah, I think the point that Juli made is really important. Sex is the thermostat in a way, and it shows us, it’s a mirror to show us what is going on as well as what needs to be adjusted, what needs to be healed, what needs to be worked on, whether it’s things in our present or things from our past. So I think it’s important for us to be curious and not just assume “Oh, everybody struggles”, or “People aren’t having good sex these days”, or “Sex just gets bad after a certain age”. But rather to be curious and see what might God be revealing through this that he wants to heal. And it could be something in your current relationship, but like Juli said, it could be something from your past. But either way, it’s the revelation that God wants to heal something deeper.
And so I think it’s a beautiful litmus test for us and an invitation to go deeper with Him. And of course, I’m a fan of counseling, not only because it’s what I do, but because I have just seen so many people helped and so many people work on achieving wholeness. And I’ve benefited from it in my own personal life. So I really believe that it can be such a helpful tool.
Debra (01:00:13.75)
And even if one party wants to go and the other party doesn’t, I always say that you cannot control the other person. You cannot change the other person. You cannot force the other person. But when you change the ingredients for yourself, it changes the entire recipe. You can have a big impact on your relationship, what you do, what you don’t do, the boundaries you set, how you communicate all of these things by just focusing on your ingredients. It can have a big difference on the whole outcome, the whole recipe. So don’t be discouraged and just take the next individual step toward healing and see what God will do with the rest.
Gary
Belah I know your whole ministry has just been enthusiastic about helping couples connect in this area. In part from your experience, what are some parting words you would give?
Belah
Absolutely. Well, first of all, I’m just so honored to be here, Gary, with these wonderful women and the breadth of experience they have. I’m going to, I love what Debra said, don’t be discouraged. I mean, at the end of the day, we serve a God of hope. And I just want to encourage you that you can have hope that your marriage will change. You can have hope that you will experience pleasure and intimacy. You can have hope that you will experience desire for your spouse. You can have hope, dear husband. And I, I work with wives and husbands, but the vast majority of the husbands I work with, their wife doesn’t even know they’re doing the program. Like they just can’t get her to do anything proactively about intimacy. And I understand how painful that is. And so if you’re listening, I just want you to have hope that as Debra said, you can change the marriage by changing yourself. And it’s not you trying to change your wife. It’s about you saying, you know what?
Belah (01:02:03.65)
I haven’t been discipled in this. I don’t know how to do husband, husbandry! Well, I don’t know how to be who I’m supposed to be before God. And so I just encourage you, yes, pursue the journey of wholeness, healing for yourself. Be the man that God designed you to be. And remember your relationship with God. He is a God of hope. You can have hope your marriage will change.
Gary
I want to thank you all for joining us. And let me just stress again, one of the reasons I wanted these three women together, and it’s very gracious of them because they’re all deserving of a whole hour to themselves. They have more than enough to share, but it shows their humility in joining in a group is that I feel like I spent 25 % of my time trying to network other ministries. It’s just the joy I have and the call that God has given me. I trust these three ministries.
I’m sure we don’t all agree about everything or how we would word everything, but I believe they love the Lord, they honor scripture, and I think they all have a prophetic voice. So I want to stress again, Juli’s Authentic Intimacy, Debra’s true love dates, or Debrafileta.com, Belah Rose, can find her under Delight Your Marriage, and they have a clarity call. Debra has her network. I’ve been to Juli’s sexual discipleship stuff. We’ve got our church going.
We’ve brought them here, all three of these. I feel like if you want to get deeper into this area, I hope you’ll pursue this further with each one of them because they have so much more to share than we can get here. So thank you, Juli and Debra and Belah for joining us and being so generous with your time. And I just pray God’s richest blessings on your ministry going forward in 2025.
